Nivsch

@zurew I am not underestimating the realization which is very real and valuable. But still everyone will frame it differently which will still affect the realization significantly (we are all one / you are alone / you are together with everything / etc). The Ego will never stop saying his words. But you can always be more conscious and integrate all of these perspectives into a more whole perspective. I am not saying I am above those people, I am probably less conscious than Leo and many spiritual people with an integrity of hard work and contemplation. But every level can see things the higher levels doesnt see. For example Blue can see things green doesnt. I will read couple of times more what you wrote and will reply.

@zurew Ok this makes sense that if we neutralizing the part of the brain/mind (is there really a so solid part of it? I doubt it) which is responsible to the sense of self, then we see the infinite of the processes within us. But even then, your emotions, your desire and your personality will definitely corrupt your experience into a solid picture of reality you want to be. its impossible to escape from that. Thats why even among the hard-core method and psychedelic users, you will still see different version of "absolute reality". Some will see infinitely together-ness with everyone, and some will see aloneness and solipsism. And of course everyone will think he is the more right one. Also, you can't trust only one kind of psychedelic above the other because then your picture will be distorted towards the unique wiring the psychedelic X does above the wiring other methods and psychedelics will do. And thank you for your indept explanation!

@zurew How can you get an "infinite mind" or "infinite indentity"? And its ok stage yellow sounds good to me ? What approach would you use to deal with reality problem? What would you do practically speaking?

I agree with you. Spiral dynamics for example shows us there is an hierarchy of perspectives. But a perspective of a trip is still a perspective and you can't put it above another psychedel's trip perspective or above sober state perspective. BUT a perspective which include the all three is a bit more elevated. Your mind is always finite at every state.

Right, but everyone does the same from his state whatever will be. Agree. but again, this is true also to everyone who build his model from another state. logic and emotions. What EVERY state will make you do if you will rely only on it. Cannot be created without using emotions and logic. I am not. We have to take your perspective into account just like mine.

You can build a model every time a new from any perspective and then merge it all. Yes it will be exponentially more and more complicated until infinity. Thats not a mistake. To reduce infinity into "Your sensation is the only that exist and your mother doesnt have her own too" is so hasty, simplified, religiously-like rigid, and biased from here to australia and back. The soup of emotions blended in these like statements shouts from the screen.

No. What I am trying to say is that sober state is also very important and we can't just take a psychedelic and decide "This psychedelic reveals to us that X Y..." and make this more true than the sober state perspective. Psychedelic X shows us a perspective X. Psychedelic Y shows us a perspective Y. Sober state shows us a perspective Z. Meditation A shows us a perspective A. And so on. We can't just put one perspective above the others, because if we do that we make our biasies decide what is more important. I dont know to say its perfectly euqal or not perfectly equal but we must take into account the variety of perspectives. Let alone that a realization from one psychedelic will necessarily be distorted in SOME way by our desires when we build our truth model in our mind, after the raw experience, when during that phase, a retro logical mechanism is taking place and we can't just neutralize it. Let alone (2) that our pre-assumptions and contemplations we do during the trip/method are necessarily influence in some way what we will get. We can't run from it and just neglect it away.

Hi just to say that the last sentence i wrote which sound provocative wasnt at all meant personly to you but only for general speaking, i edited it now. then sorry if it hurted. Yes the ego is taking place I agree. But I think this is the case all the time with any spiritual "camp". I hope this solipsism issue will settle here in this forum as time passes and the language will be adapted better and better to make the distincion between naive-solipsism ("you are literally alone and your mother doesnt have sensations as you has") and contrary to the (more) real thing as @nistake wrote couple of days in another conversation, which is not biased towards aloneness and make a room to say we are just all together and in the relative language nobody is alone (something like this at least in my interpretation of what I have read). As long as we still emphasize the 'alone' side of the equation and neglect the 'together' side then we are still biased and this is the real ego game. With all the respect.

This message of yours is SO important so in your permission I will emphasize it here to make it push into the eyes of many more people and to contemplate it: ⚀⚃ You're assuming that the sober state is actually finite and that the psychedelic state is actually infinite. I will inform you that neither of these assumptions is true, so the rest of this reasoning is nonsense. ⚃⚀ Gesundheit2 The tendency to take psychedelics or any method result as more important than the sober state is a huge trap. Sober state has also so much information from our subconscious more aware self we just overlook in a daily basis.

@Inliytened1 I think this is not enough. We cant hand wave the issue so fast. There is a deeper reason you want to still talk to others again and again and this is because you subconscious higher self doesnt fully agree with this realization, and tells you that solipsism is a half-baked realization and not the truth, and it will turn out to be not accurate at the next level of consciousness. If you (not you personally but in general speaking) dont have nothing better to do than talking to "yourself" then you are bored so go on and expand your interest habbits.

When you have depression you have a direct experience of "I am not worthy at all". Does it make this the real wide picture? When you drink alcohol you have a direct experience of a super confident man. Does it make it the permanent truth? While in sober state you also have a direct experience about reality. Why is this less important than the direct experience of 5meo?

But in the relative world, you as a human have sensation AND ALSO your mother has its own. No? What do you think?

But to be fair you are also imagining that you are imagining.

Way more. In my opinion this is still a stage of consciousness / an excess of yellow or turquoise. If solipsism was the final stage it was very sad. Fortunately its not. This is not only about getting clearer but about to discover that the previous stage was only partially true.

@Someone here 1. What new question can I formulate and contemplate right now? 2. Can I trust more a realization from one method or one psychedelic and put it as more important than another psychedelic/method realization? 3. Is a psychedelic/method x perspective of reality more important than the sober/naive state perspective of reality? 4. Does a contemplation about something when I take a psychedelic helps my potential realization or distorts it? 5. Is imagination equal to reality? 6. What is the different between reality and a dream? 7. Can be degrees and levels of real-ness to reality and/or dreams? 8. What claim(s) can I have which contradicts solipsism? 9. What claim(s) can I have which contradicts that reality is "real"?

@spinderella First of all I have not experienced this substance so I just can learn from you But I want to stress a point from outside: How can you trust ONE kind of substance to reveal for you the REALITY? The most you can say is that this is a PERSPECTIVE. A valid perspective and very interesting. But still one facet of the truth. Another substance Y will wire your brain in a way Y and then you will recieve a scenario Y. Do you understand what I mean? Maybe another substance/experience from another method will say something a bit different. And then, when you build the reality model in your psyche it will have to include the 2 scenarios even if they contradict each other, and also this is still a perspective. And so on.

@Someone here I also feel attacked when someone states this solipsism as absolute truth even if his (your, in this example) intention are pure. I also didnt meant to attack you. Just this topic is very hard emotionally to many people and probably easier to other people. I think its like left and right in politics and every camp wants reality to be some way and take his experience and build on it a fixed pov (like solipsism) which is not, in my opinion, what reality is. But anyway every one is free to think what he wants.

This is a half-baked realization and the evidence of it is its internal self-contradiction that says that your pov is the only one but that also its not the only one. Thats what YOU say. not me. I am listening to myself in my spiritual journey and not to any emotionaly biased ideology of any kind.

What you say here is that we are all infinitly together and collapsed to one. That is something I can agree with. No that "others dont have their own experience" what i can't agree. Please see that the decision to imprint the ONENESS experience into "aloneness" words is an emotional and psychological decision, which will distort what it is. Actually the together-ness version is the more pure one. Why dont keep it this way?

+1 ? Its a circular logic. Just like what religion and science do too.

Panic attack is also something you feel its SO real but this doesnt make its content true.

But above you said: "Yes .but it's even more radical than that. The same is true from your pov as well."

+1 ?

Did you take psychedelics before and if you did what kind? Did psychedelics help you along the way to realize that or only watching the videos?

Your imagening them as not the true them because you wear an mental image on them which is approximation and never them, because they are like nothingness in the way that an ever changing form is. But i dont agree they dont feel sensations too.