Nivsch

The mushroom you eat changes your entire perception. The only way you can keep saying reality is not physical at all, is if a placebo mushroom/placebo 5meo has the same effect as the real thing.

I didn't

@Leo Gura If you trick your friend and give him a placebo mushroom/5meo, still he will feel the same things like if he would took real psychedelics? I know that you are probably mean to something else that i cant fully get yet, but i'm still interested to know what do you think about plcebo vs real.

@Serotoninluv ? like your answer. I had an impression (maybe wrong impression. If Leo see this - fix me if I was wrong) that Leo meant that EVERYTHING is imagination and/or everything is non-physical.

Maintining the healthy sides of your stage (for example Orange) WITHOUT facing the crises of the stage. 99.9% of the people, in MY opinion, sooner or later, will have to understand why they will need to adopt values of next stage, and only their suffering forces will be able to get them out of the orange matrix. I think its very unlikely to live just an healthy orange without feel its limits never in your life. I think that our role, if we want the better for others, is JUST to show them what is found outside the matrix. In other words to make them know the other stages and their values and the fact that Spiral Dynamics exists Thats it. I heard that the attitude of the SDI center is to make the spiral healthier. But, if you do it in a way that you "protect" other people in your organization from seeing the unhealthy sides of their stage, you are actually HURT them! It is healthy for them to feel their own crises too. I dont know what actually is their attitude, I just claiming that the desire to make your organization 'healthy' (what SDI center say they want to do) is not nessesarily what is the most healthy to your workers. If you really think about the society or your country as a whole, You will need to give up a little of your organization health. Or won't you need that? What do you think? At least, I think I found the answer in how to make Israel society progress - just to make as much people as i can to know the model. Thats enough challenging for itself i think.

Every new insight, every new feeling, every mystical experience CAN be explained by "neural changes" in the brain. There are trillions of neural connections in the brain and every new change in some connections can bring with it a new feeling and new experience. So how can we know the brain doesnt does it all? Note: I DO want that the only-physical paradigm will collapse, but I can't get convinced this is the case.

@Merkabah you are also right but in the other hand words and theory (and books, And forums...) are still effective tools, not instead, of course, but in addition to exercise. And i do exercises daily. One Similar example: No matter how much you exercise, how can you know that "infinite intelligence" is not just biological and evolutional phenomena? You have trillions of cell connections and it can accumulate information from millions of years. Thats enough to feel Infinite to you. It debunks logic and debunks reasoning, but STILL can be only biological. That what makes me feel uncomfortable because everything saying here can be turned out to be not true or only partially true.

@undeather I do exercises daily

@flowboy not the ego, I afraid of horror movie things to appear real and thats the reason. I dont know how it affect me, maybe Ill start to see a big spider and ill feel it 100% real? For example. Again i dont know if it is likely with mushroom. And yes, graduately is more responsible. You can laugh.

@hamedsf your are real. I am not imagine you, and you know that! No matter that you and I we both the same because we cant control ourselves (I discovered it during mindfulness and anxiety periods) and also we cant control each other. Thats why me and other are the same thing - we are ONE. Thats how ME understand what Leo means by oneness.

@Consilience I feel many times that reality reminds me think that i forgot, like i see and then ahhh right i forgot. Reality creates my toughts not less then my toughts create reality.

After read it now I still can't (even that I want to!) be convinced that is not the brain which creates the consciousness. But I will read your message more times and maybe i will understand it differently later.

Of course i cant know i just tried to understand what exactly you meant when you said that its all imagination - the raw vision or just what we think the things are. But i am also admit that right now i cant think differently about the raw vision. I cant be really open to the option its imagination, because real day time is very continiuous, logic (your blue chair will never turn itself to red for example) and it all looks just so realistic, stable and logic. But when you are dreaming or imaging, the plot of the story is messy and its all bunch of unconnected pictures.

@hamedsf oh ok the format of the forum sometimes confuse me, and thank you! ? i glad you like them! The thing is that when you are imagine or dreaming something its all messy and the plot of the story is jumpy and its all pictures which arent connected to one another, but during the day the picture is continiuous, realistic, tidy, logic. Your chair always looks the same, and reality often remind me things that when it happens i feel there is no chance i am hullucinate it. When ill remeber an example ill add it.

@hamedsf did you respond to me (the topic starting message)?

Maybe, but if I try it in the future it will be SO graduately like (for example a mushroom) starting from 0.3-0.4 and add 0.1 every couple of weeks or even every month or more. Something like that. Slow and relaxed. Even if only in the 5th month i will start to feel something 'deep', its ok. Slower is better.

@Merkabah do you mean the circular reasoning here? I asked it to understand the route of thinking that lead to the conclusion that all is just imagination and therefore i wanted to know if what i wrote here above is right in Leo's opinion or in your opinion guys. The raw vision right now that i see is not an imagination. But every thing (when we address it seperately) is just an imagination and concept.

@Leo Gura when you say that everything is just our imagination you say it because: No free will > You are not control toughts and feeling > not control yourself > not control other people too > means that you = others > no seperation > every "thing" is imagination (as a seperate thing), but it is part of oneness and the oneness is right before my eyes and the raw view i see is NOT an imagination. but if i think of it as a seperate thing - THIS is an imagination. Am i right?

Talking about outsmart god, actually, when I have argument with people about healthy food I always claim that natural, whole, fresh is always the better to the body. "But give me a proof! It just religion" (said the orange logical person ?‍♂️??‍♂️??‍♀️) I cant prove it. But it is obvious, because you can't outsmart nature. Nature is always the smartest! Thats really the truth. This is the truth even in terms of a totally physical world (i guess). Thats why i can understand this.

How did you get to this conclusion? Maybe that will help me to understand.

Deeply confused - why?

I read what you wrote. i have to read it again couple of times and than i will respond

I'll read again all the answers you gave. The thing is - Every direct experience can also come from the brain. Psychedelics make changes in the brain and I know you know it (cause you posted a big table of neurotransmitors ?) So what ever can make me think different? Even if i'll do embodiment exercise for many years.

Chemicals activity can be the cause to your experience, and also can be the result, and also neither cause nor a result and both just happen in the same time for another reason (maybe infinite causes and results?) But it still can be all physical in all the three cases. Do you agree that when you feel something, a physical signature of it is happening in the brain at the same time?

How can you know that your position is not a result of brain wiring you did? Or to be more accurate - did happen to you, because we dont control anything and all is done for us (no free will = we are all one) but still it doesn't prove non-physical level to reality. Again, i want that reality will be more than physical. I just looking for something to show me that and cant find.