VeganAwake

Have you ever witnessed someone that has a phobia of public speaking give a speech? The body freezes up, the palms become sweaty, the stomach tightens up, the heart beats really fast, the speech can be slurred, monotone, quiet or excessively loud. Psychological fear can absolutely impact the functioning of a body. What was being said is that this psychological fear can be hidden or masked in certain situations so there would be no way to know whether or not psychological fear was being experienced. It could never be definitively proven or disproven.... so in that sense it's unknowable! ❤

And it looks like VeganAwake just took the lead the score is nothing to nothing

But there's no telling if a body is experiencing internal fear from an external appearance. The same way a body couldn't prove externally that they are not experiencing internal fear. So the whole discussion just falls apart at that point because it's simply unknowable. ❤

Hey bro really nice to hear from you, yes my wife and three boys are doing great and I will be joining them next month in Grand Forks North Dakota after I retire from the military... Yes tis the season happy holidays to you and your family as well and I hope you are all doing well. ❤

Yes psychological suffering ends because it's recognized the sufferer(ME) is an illusion. But it still sounds like you believe there is a real separate individual that can one day BECOME fearless and thus allowing the body to become fearless. Of course a body would not be afraid of of a rope that it already knew was not a snake. But the body can never predict when the next real snake might sneak into the house. What's being said is that the projection of a body becoming fearless has nothing to do with enlightenment. As I said before the body will naturally jump out of the way of a moving cargo truck prior to any thinking about it. There isn't a real you within the body that becomes fearless and then quickly decides whether or not to jump out of the way of the cargo truck.... that experience of a doer and thinker is the illusion of self. ❤

Those experiences don't mean anything, there not important. Imagine what a schizophrenic could write on this forum.....endless wild experiences.

Hello, I had a lot fun with numerous drugs and hallucinogens in my late teens. Also lots of meditation and seeking in my mid 30's. One day for no reason whatsoever it was recognized that "I" wasn't a real entity within the body. There was apparent experiences, memories, thoughts, ideas, concepts, beliefs but none of which equaled a real "ME" or individual in the body. It surprisingly wasn't that shocking because there never was a strong sense of individuality here from the start. ❤

Exactly, And resisting reality isn't something separate from reality.... it's the whole shebang, nothing is excluded! ❤

Fear is an inescapable phenomenon of a properly functioning body/mind organism. Ignorance can appear as fearlessness. (a body that simply doesn't recognize an obvious threat to its survival) Also external appearance doesn't reveal internal experience.... a body appearing fearless externally could be screaming in agony internally.(poker face) None of which has anything to do with enlightenment. ❤

Enlightenment isn't a real happening within time and space. It's the end of something that never actually started but was experienced as real (illusion of self). And in that sense it could be described as a non happening.

The conditioned body will turn its head when it's name is called, prefer coffee over tea and avoid death by jumping out of the way of a moving train. Then the sense of self claims those actions as it's doing. It takes credit as the doer and thinker of all actions and thoughts. And thus it also seems to suffer when things don't go according to its unreal agenda. ❤

I have understood everything you're saying. The general misconceptions about enlightenment are endless. Hence the importance of approaching any inquiry empty of concepts, biases or preconceived ideas about it.(Empty glass) 1) Enlightenment isn't actually real. It's just a word that points to the end of the already unreal experience of being a separate individual within the body/mind. 2) It has nothing to do with the body no longer feeling physical pain. It's the recognition that there isn't an owner or experiencer behind that feeling of pain or pleasure for that matter. 3) There are not levels or degrees of enlightenment. Levels and degrees only seem real within the framework/dream story of being a real separate individual that could either move closer or further away from so-called enlightenment. 4) Enlightenment has nothing to do with the apparent individual gaining enough spiritual knowledge and understanding that it will one day achieve or attain something called enlightenment.... it's actually the opposite. It's the recognition that the individual trying to achieve or attain is completely unreal. 5) Enlightenment doesn't answer the question of why? It reveals that the questioner is completely unreal. 6) Enlightenment isn't just about experiencing certain happy emotions or something like that. It's every emotion! 7) It's not about becoming a better selfless spiritual person that society will love and fall on their knees for. It's the recognition that better or worse are mere concepts that are accepted as true. ❤

@Salvijus I remember trying to uphold all those spiritual beliefs, it becomes like an identity.... it's exhausting ❤

@Gidiot yes a complete mind-f***, almost like prisonbreaking the mind and then recognizing there was never a real prison or prisoner. Like busting through Illusions only to look back and see nothing there.... complete Anarchy. There is no goal no meaning purpose or value to anything. No real path to follow, complete freedom for No One. Nothing matters in any way at all. Wholeness without an opposite. And after this realization there can be going out and starting a business and setting goals, yet no one is bound to them any longer.... it's indescribable! ❤

That's really a good point & reminds me of the phrase "ignorance is bliss". And what's crazy is although enlightenment is usually described as an impersonal experience, it's simultaneously very personal in the sense that every experience is different. Some seem to have an open receptiveness to it, and it can seem quite ordinary while others experience life shattering or debilitating reactions. Even heard it described as a terrifying realization. It's like a box of chocolates you never know what your gonna get. Here it could be described as shockingly ordinary and simultaneously extraordinary but completely unexpected. In a weird way it feels like death and rebirth yet it's recognized no one is living it. ?

As a prior Seeker I can tell you've done your fair share of seeking non-dual wisdom and such...the glass is filled to the top and overflowing. The thing is this conversation isn't going anywhere because there is a slew of preconceived notions held their about what enlightenment should or shouldn't be like. And if what's being said here doesn't match up with those preconceived notions they're cast to the side and labeled as bullshit..... it's actually a defense mechanism of the ego which is called "shoot the messenger". If you shoot the messenger you don't have to take seriously the implications of the message. You don't have anybody in a corner because there isn't an I or a YOU, just acquired concepts identified with as MY concepts. The video actually seemed quite relevant. ? wouldn't you say. ❤

You definitely have some very wild and creative ideas about enlightenment. It reminds me of this movie.

That's what's being experienced there, its whole complete and perfect. ?

There's nowhere to get to, there's no levels or degrees which need to be attained. All there is is wholeness which also includes the experience of separation. ❤

@Salvijus This is exactly why it's referred to as Awakening. It reveals the futility of an unreal individual attempting to find wholeness within wholness. ❤

No one has an absolute realization and there are not degrees and levels of enlightenment. It's total freedom for no one because it's recognized there never was an individual bound and suffering in the first place. Levels and degrees of Enlightenment only occur within the dream story of a real separate individual that could attain certain degrees and levels towards completeness or wholeness. All there is is wholeness.

Oh resistance and judgments can still arise, there just not arising for anyone. Enlightenment isn't about becoming a meditating pacifist that would get walked on or taken advantage of by the general public. It's fair game after Enlightenment and that's the true Freedom being sought after. ❤

Enlightenment has nothing to do with total acceptance. It's the recognition that there never was an individual that could make a decision to accept things or not. Enlightenment is actually very rare and it's never what the sense of self thinks it will be like. There's no such thing as an enlightened individual that would test out the authenticity of enlightenment because there is no one left that would care to prove anything. ❤

@Salvijus that individual right there that has been acquiring so-called spiritual knowledge over apparent time and now believes it has gained enough knowledge to have an educated discussion on what enlightenment entails is completely illusory..... there's no one there. And when those spiritual concepts get challenged or threatened it feels like someone is challenging/threatening MY concepts.... it feels very personal. This is what suffering is... the identification as the vulnerable individual that has to defend itself. There's apparent concepts but there's no one behind them... no owner... take a close LOOK! ❤

@Salvijus in a sense it kind of sounds like we're pointing to the same recognition but it's actually the opposite. Any sense of becoming aware or recognizing one's true nature as pure awareness is simply the ego trying to re-establish its identity under the radar as this new improved higher spiritual self.... it's often referred to as the spiritual ego. Enlightenment doesn't result in landing at a conclusion that lines up or meets the seekers agenda. It's the Revelation that the seeker and its so-called conclusions about what THIS IS were completely illusory. ❤