corndjorn

Based off of my experiences and a couple of my friends, i really do think that psychs as a conductive tool for spiritual work is mostly hype, and that actual full enlightenment can never come from a psychedelic, i think psychedelics can give you glimpse experiences though and thus awaken you to nonduality. Due to the fact that psychedelics are energetic amplifiers, its in their name aswell, psychedelic means "soul revealing" and as we know, a substance that amplifies your energetic system can have many benefits, such as dealing with trauma, having a new perspective, and even awakening to nonduality, but theres a difference between an awakening and actual enlightenment, awakening to nonduality is the mere start, a process of dissolving fear mechanisms and the attachments that resist and run away from them and its thought patterns, take place. this is why there is a big difference between a zen master and a dude who just awoke to nonduality. the main incongruency that i noticed between psychedelics and enlightenment is firstly, psychs amplify your emotional system thus the chance of you being stuck in your own ego created worlds is higher than if u were sober, especially if you have self esteem issues then take a psych, and all of a sudden you're having a messiah mania or perverting the truth of godhood to make you feel powerful. this only one example, but we all know psychs are big emotional amplifiers, and enlightenment is the process of dissolving (not numbing) your emotions and their underlying fear mechanisms, so i cannot really see psychs being a long term good tool for enlightenment, i can only see it as an awakening or perspective tool, but use it too often and it can make you live in your own bubble of delusions even moreso than normal people. fancy and extreme experiences isnt enlightenment if you ask me. also curious what @Leo Gura thinks, all feedback is appreciated though.

@ivory just because you cant measure accurately doesnt mean it doesnt exist... and if you read my text with its context i said that the best way to measure is comparing your nondual states depth now and before, thats the only way. and getting caught up in measuring states is only gonna make the process slower since youre getting caught up in unimportant stuff. and full enlgihtenment is the cessation of all fear mechanisms and dependencies.

@ivory theres many enlightenment maps online and the buddha also made a map too, but if im honest i dont think anyone can measure degrees of enlightenment accurately, its much more related to your own makeup and your own depth of experience. measuring isnt really important, but as time progresses after your awakening you can see that the depth and clarity of your state is much more deeper than it once was.

@Matt8800 thats cool that its doing good for you, more power to you then. i still think there are blindspots the people miss though, its just how humans work tbh, theres things that they dont know what they are doing, but even that blindspot would eventually get dealt with i believe, either through life triggering it or by your own self reflection. and yeah you're right when you said that if people are honest about what is a true asset and detriment for them, then that will aid their path. though also to add on that, is to be open for when those assests possibly become a detriment aswell, and being able to let go of past paradigms of practice that are of no need anymore.

@Matt8800 thats a good way to use them, ive used them like that aswell rhough il admit not all the time. But what i think the main issue is even when ur intention is to clear your karmic attachments, is that as humans we still have egoic blindspots imo, and its harder to let go of your blindspots when they are amplified to a large degree. I think even post trip those blindspots would still be amplified in a way.

@Matt8800 that is true about nisrgadattas point, but i never really said psychs are bad all out and that its not relative. Ive axknowledged that psychs have many benefits but one quality of the psychedelic experience is energetic amplification. Now with amplifiying ur consciousness you can get alot of benefits such as seeing your subconcious mechanisms more clearly, awakening to nonduality, dealing with trauma, etc.. but why i say as tool its not the most conductive kind for enlightebment, is because it also amplifies your personalized emotional worlds to a large extent, and as a person stabilizes in nonduality he releases these emotional worlds bit by bit in a slow peocess until there is no longer personalized worlds, hence why nondual states get deeper with time. With psychs being an amplifier, ive noticed that it would be much harder to release those emotional worlds if psychs are used frequently, especially our blindspots.

@Enlightenment I did not claim that i met a person with complete enlightenment, but what im saying is that the path to it exists and starts after awakening to no self. your consciousness "catches up" with the awakening by releasing all those fear mechanisms and its egoic paradigms in your memory which is not synonomous with enlightenment. anyone who has stablized in no self for a while notices this ongoing process in consciousness, the nondual awakening becomes more and more in depth.

@Jed Vassallo I dont think its right to say hes all ego, though we can help each other pointing out each others egoic blindspots, which is always good.

@Joseph Maynor @Esoteric imo joseph is on point for not clinging to it and lessening his measuring

@Joseph Maynor you are not enlightened. you are awake to nonduality however, but it seems you havent spent much time in your state to realize the importance of what the many traditions and teachers such as the buddha taught about the process of taking out the memory of attachment and fear in your subconcious, which is delusional ultimately in complete nonduality. your limbic system has to catch up to the awakening. you cannot say youre enlightened when you probably have fears just as much as the the guy next door, complete enlightenment is not something that happens instaneously, and we shouldnt be worried about "reaching" there either, just abiding in awareness and letting go of fear mechanisms as they arise is enough.

this.

@Joseph Maynor many people awakened to awareness, its not really something new in this forum. if you think thats that for enlightenment work then you havent spent much time in your nondual state, life will trigger your attachments and youll see what i mean by this process of letting go either way. your system has a memory of fear mechanisms, regardless if you awakened or not, it takes time for it to fully dissolve, even after awakening.

@Joseph Maynor Lol, sure mate. i feel like youre not acknoledging that enlightenment isnt over for you yet, you just awkaened, which many did in this forum including me since 4 years. the process happens regardless if youre awakened or not, maybe youll reach full dissolution or maybe not, regardless, its still happening. nonduality isnt truly nondual until all fear mechanisms are gone and the delusional veils of the subconcious mind are gone. you can still abide in awareness and see this process, no need to avoid it. avoiding what u fear is.. delusional and unenlightened by definition. and that is my whole point, awakening is not the end, a human has memory of many fear mechanisms that are slowly getting proccessed and let go of after awakening.

@Joseph Maynor and sure mankind is the bullshitting animal, but how do you know youre not bullshitting yourself? how do you know for sure what i am saying has not truth to it? you don't, so dont bs yourself. we cant have a constructive discussion without you being open.

@Joseph Maynor dont be so quick to believe in your own paradigms, be open to the possibility, these traditions that have been practicing enlightenment for thousands of years arent just talking out of their ass, i thought so too, but at my point in the path i see more and more the value of their teachings and the nuances of the path. for you to be truly nondual then all fear mechanisms by definition should be out the door, and an ego is the bundle of all fear mechanisms. if the buddha says that non egoic living is possible and other traditions than i think u should be open to that possibility instead of sticking to your conceptions and just call out other perspectives bullshit.

@Joseph Maynor sometimes in life there are breadcrumbs of truth, even though it doesnt show itself fully (because im not in complete nonduality and havent met one yet) but in my experience and others that ive discussed with in the zen domain, there is indeed a complete enlightenment and process of ego dissolution thats occuring to many people who stabilized in nonduality for a while. and its not like its a new discussion, buddhist zen and other traditions have been discussing this for thousands of years. shit, even normal people go through this process, but probably unconscious, each time life triggers their attachments they have an oppurtunity of egoic dissolution. i think you shouldnt be quick to call bs, no need to believe either just be open to the possibility.

@Aquarius thank you, yes this forum is indeed helpful, including to process my own egoic stuff aswell. Wish u the best in ur path aswell

@now is forever you act as if i said psychedelics are flat out bad or people who use them are stupid, ive stated multiple times that my post shouldnt be looked at dogmatically, everyone are at different points in their paths and im sharing my point in the path where psychedelics do more harm than good for me, it seems that ur the one thats not open to that possibility. I never said psychedelics WILL blunt progress i said it CAN, big difference. And secondly, i asked you multiple times to please explain yourself and you just kept giving me this mysterious enlightened attitude and not really trying to explain to me ur point, when i genuinely said i want to see what u mean, am i the closed off one really?

@Aquarius discussion of the path to enlightenment and seeing more perspectives that i havent acknoledged before

@Aquarius Your whole post is projection tbh. What i said in the post i genuinely meant, i dont understand what he was trying to point me in his convo. You have this enlightened/constructive ego that takes things out of context it seems to me

@Joseph Maynor im sorry but this is someyhing that has to do with time and experience, time will show you that nondual states get deeper in fact, by the release your fear mechanisms, which is what ur ego is built off of

@Joseph Maynor sure okay i dont have proof of a complete enlightened person, but through my own experience and many others thats been stabilized in nonduality this seems to be the course of action thats taking place, "moving" towards ego dissolution.

@Aquarius i know youre expressing your opinion, and im expressing mine haha, sometimes i can be a bit abrasive however. i like you though youre a constructive guy. nice to meet you man.

@now is forever man seriously what are you talking about? im trying to be open to what your saying, which is why im asking u to be elaborate... but youre not explaining exactly what youre talking about.

@Joseph Maynor an awakened person has an ego, but a person who is in a complete state of nonduality (cleared all subconscious fear mechanisms through the process tha takes place after awakening, fear is the building blocks of your ego) has no ego. not many are in a complete state of nonduality, the buddha was though.