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Everything posted by Zigzag Idiot
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@LastThursday Well put! Exactly how I see it too,,,
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Isn’t most complaining just a form of unnecessary suffering? Some might say that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Which is a good point. But how often is it that complaining accomplishes anything? Whoever has a perspective to share, please do.
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Well put @Nightwise @SgtPepper @kag101 Being someone with a history of many addictions and wrestling with them. I’ve seen this phenomena many times. Associated with this is the law of three. The addiction is 2nd force in this instance. Whenever you fight or strongly resist 2nd force, it only makes it stronger. Sometimes expressed as that which you resist persists. This doesn’t mean complete indulgence though but I guess it could. More important, IMO, is to approach it in uniquely in your own way with deep understanding which means objective uncritical self-observation which everyone has kinda expressed in their own way. Another phenomena out of the law of three. Never start a new octave with a lot of gathering of attention and fanfare. Referred to as an active do. As in do ra me of an octave. You have a much better chance of success by starting with a passive do. Starting low key, in other words. Below isn’t the precise enneagram to display for what I’m trying to express but it maybe kind of gives you an idea. The first major hurtle in an endeavor is getting past the me-fa gap in the first octave between the point 3 and point 6. Good luck to you,,,,
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I’m glad you understand my attempt at humor. Nicoll, in his Psychological Commentaries on the Teaching of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky stressed the importance of being lighthearted. Although the 5 volume set is around 1760 pages, I enjoyed reading it so much, I read it a second time. Osho, I once saw, recommended it and remarked how much he liked it. Actually the set is comprised transcripts of his talks given to his work group over a ten year period. One of my favorite quotes of his in the category of what I view as being lighthearted is his talking basically about the condition of monkey mind- Nicoll psychological commentaries page 683. Have you got sufficient inner observation? Have you cleared and well dug a big space in your mind through the practice of inner attention and put a hedge round it and a gate so that you can hear the click of the gate and watch this darling little thought coming up the drive all ready to say: “Oh, how tired I am,” etc.? I fancy that once we let it in very far every thought gets hold of us and wrings us, takes our blood, makes us react, talk, behave, in a certain way, and then, satisfied with having dined off us, it retires for a time. Quite a few of his statements have affected me similar and I have had to do the same. There is one in particular that I still don’t have any clear understanding on. I may mention what statement that is some other time. That a good insight. Although I no longer crave alcohol. By common standards, I fit the description of being an alcoholic because of how my life was 20-30 years ago. The Serenity prayer with what it encompasses is an excellent example of how there can be areas of ones life that at times completely rule over some of us. For others it will be something different that renders them helpless in trying to overcome it on their own. Associated with what in the Work is called chief feature or sometimes one’s blind spot. @Corpus Also in what you describe. I’m reminded of an axiom in the work that states - nothing can grow us in terms of being more than having to endure an injustice.
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As Fonzi would say, Correctimundo. We should always fully and completely feel whatever it is we feel and not repress and very importantly, as you have written,“expressing is different.” This is where we have a choice. This is where understanding or projection occurs. If we understand something completely it can’t make us have a negative reaction. For instance if you see that someone is caught up in being passive aggressive towards you, it has no effect. You see through understanding that they are deeply unhappy in some way and are projecting the responsibility for this onto you. You see that they are completely asleep in the spiritual sense and although it may be unfair, you simply don’t take it personal. Clearing this hurtle in acquiring understanding takes quite a long time. IMO. I’m not claiming either that my work is complete here either. Precaution here. It’s going to get hot. For good reason though. Not just for the sake of being provocative or grandstanding. Please bear with me and try not to take it personal. I want to finish my response here with a series of quotes from Maurice Nicoll. To summarize in short what he says here is - You’re all a bunch of liars and don’t realize it because you lie to yourself backed up with the lies of self justification and along with it not taking responsibility for your inner world. I include myself here as well. If reading this makes you angry then it just proves the accuracy of what is said because taking something in a negative way is a sign that understanding is incomplete. Also, IMO, it is behind the meaning of why Christ said “forgive them for they know not what they do”. OBEDIENCE III “The Work begins in a man or a woman who is beginning to understand that he or she cannot with impunity think or feel mechanically. Higher Centres are near or far according to the inner state of yourself. If your inner state of yourself is one of envy, malice, hatred, bitterness, judgment, your psychological body—that is, your inner state—is wet, a sodden mess, and will never conduct the higher vibrations of intel- ligence and meaning that come from Higher Centres. That is why the Work starts with self-observation, observation of what’s going on, observation of what your state is...You must observe how you take in the impressions of life, and transform them through your understanding of the Work. Then you begin to hear Higher Centres.” V. 4, pp. 1233-1323 AIM OVER TIME “If you make an aim in the Work—as, for instance, not to feel always this background of tears, discontent, of not being appreciated. . . it will be given to you not to have it—usually in short flashes. But only if you really want this aim and have realized what it might mean not to have it will it eventually be given you fully. You are tested first. People love their negative emotions. Remove these by magic—then do you think they will praise you? No—they will hate you. This is our curious situation.” V. 3, p. 1097 ASSIMILATING PARTS OF THE UNCONSCIOUS “Let us take an example, step by step. Someone speaks and behaves in a way I resent violently...First step: I observe I am violent and bitter. This is quite different from just being violent and bitter...Second step: I recall that no matter who is to blame I am to blame for being negative...Third step: I must ask what is it connected with in the custom- ary feeling of myself, that is behind the outburst...I decide that it seems to be a criticism of my efficiency. Have I then a picture of my being efficient and is this a component part of my customary feeling of myself? I did not quite realize it. As time goes on I become more and more conscious that it is so...My task is then clear. I must notice where I am not at all efficient and slowly include this in my feeling of myself.” V. 5, pp. 1529-30 SELF-JUSTIFYING “You know that one of the specific efforts we are taught to make in our personal work is the effort against self-justifying. Self-justifying is a complicated and very interesting process of inner and outer lying whereby we put ourselves in the right...If you are always going to be right, you will never be in the wrong, and if you are never in the wrong, you will never change. To feel one is always right is to block the way to any self-change...Remember, the more you find yourself self-justifying the more certain you may be that you are lying.” V. 1, p. 142, V. 2, p. 558 SELF-JUSTIFYING II “Suppose a person is suddenly asked why he is so negative? Probably either he will indignantly deny that he is negative or say that he has good reason to be. In both cases, he justifies himself—that is, he justifies his negative emotions. . .The root of the matter lies in this picture of always being right and so never being actually in the wrong. Here a very powerful force is at work to keep us asleep in illusions about ourselves.” V. 3, p. 999 SELF-JUSTIFYING III “If you justify everything in yourself, all you think and feel and do, of course you will never see that you are a machine. Have you realized this? Seeing that one is a machine therefore demands non-justifying.” V. 3, p. 1012 SELF-JUSTIFYING IV “When we know a thing is true about ourselves, and acknowledge it internal- ly, accusation can never make us indignant...Self-justifying cannot work in the presence of acknowledged truth.” V. 1, p. 144 THE BASIS OF SELF-JUSTIFICATION “Justifying yourself is always from your own idea of justice...Everyone has a sense of what is justice for them and finding that life does not correspond to it they cling to this sense of what they think should be justice for them. Consequently we justify our negative states, our internal considering, and our account-making.” V. 3, p. 851 LYING TO ONESELF “If you observe wrong inner talking you will notice it is only half- truths, or truths connected in the wrong order, or with something added or left out. In other words, it is simply lying to oneself. If you say: ‘Is this quite true?’ it may stop it, but it will find another set of lies. Eventually you must dislike it.” V. 1, p. LYING TO ONESELF II “The first form of lying we have to study in ourselves, the Work says, is that in which we always tend to tell about something that happened to ourselves to our own advantage. When you have to report what you said and what the other person said in some Work conversation you will find that it is practically impossible to put the matter rightly. You will tend to put the whole report to your own advantage, by leaving out some things you said and slightly over-emphasizing other things you said.” V. 2, p. 609 LYING TO ONESELF III “Begin with one thing and observe it in yourself. Begin, say, with observing that you pretend you know. This is one of the worst forms of lying. Many people pretend they know what they do not know and keep up the picture all their lives. You must, in the Work, try to see that you follow, and are a slave to, life-long ideas. Only then can you begin to understand what inner sincerity means.” V. 3, p. 1160 LYING TO ONESELF IV “What is the whole object of this being truthful in the Work? It is not based on moral grounds. It is based on the possible development of something called Essence that can never grow through pretense or falsity. All those ‘I’s that lie habitually, all those ‘I’s that protect the central kingdom of the False Personality and justify everything, twist everything, turn everything to their own advantage, prevent this inner development of Essence from taking place. For this reason, the Work teaches, it is so important to tell the truth to your teacher, because by this exercise you learn how to tell the truth to yourself.” V. 2, p. 609 LYING TO ONESELF V “A person can lie with a single gesture, a single look, a single intona- tion, a casual mannerism, a sigh, a heartbroken expression, an illness, by a hearty manner, by being always fit and well. We all know how marvelously we have behaved and we all know what intolerable conditions we have been subjected to. The Work says we all lead an imaginary life with ourselves. Now this romance may take a great deal of strength from us and in all cases it prevents us from any real self-observation. It has to be torn out of the heart.” V. 2, p. 610 LYING TO ONESELF VI “Have you ever come to the point of really seeing that your suffering is all lies, and experienced that extraordinary inner calm that results through seeing the truth about yourself? Because just as all lies make us restless, so does truth make us calm and at peace with ourselves.” V. 2, p. 616 ANOTHER SIMPLE STATEMENT “All negative states make you lie.” V. 2, p. 720 AWAKENING “All this ascription to ourselves of powers that we do not possess is the real lying that the Work is ultimately concerned with. And this unconscious lying is what through self-observation we have to become gradually conscious of. Unless this begins in us, Personality—which of course thinks it can do—remains active and Essence passive. This becoming gradually conscious of the part that pride, vanity, buffers and deep sleep play in our ordinary thinking and behavior is called the first phase of the Work. What is this phase called? It is called Awakening.” V. 3, p. 1160 Taken from= https://inner-world-books.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Gems_of_Wisdom.pdf ?✌️
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Zigzag Idiot replied to tatsumaru's topic in Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, God
Below is the third excerpt out of 12 about reification. Not to be confused with Californication. Just joking,,,, link at the bottom. Mind's Tendency to Reify As we look closer at these subtle ego activities, we discover the tendency to reify reification itself and make it a kind of object to reject. In our minds, we make it something from which we can push away and separate ourselves. The same process can happen as we reify doing, making it something to reject or judge. Even more subtle than that—we can reify nondoing, such that nondoing becomes an object, a thing we can value or cultivate. The truth is that nondoing is really nothing. No such thing exists that is called nondoing. Nondoing is the nonexistence of doing, but we make it something to aspire to, which can become a subtle obstacle. Something similar can happen to those who work exclusively with a nondual perspective about reality: at some point, they begin to reify nonduality, and it becomes for them an objective to aspire to and reach. So, as you see, the tendency of the mind to reify in order to create stability, a fixed center, or a particular orientation is unlimited. The mind, then, is a mixed blessing, a double-edged sword. And that is the condition of humanity: Our intelligence, our mind, can liberate us but it can also ensnare us. Our learning, our maturation, and even our realization and enlightenment, require the capacity for discernment, for clear discrimination, of what is true and what is not true. The Unfolding Now, pg. 188 Taken from: https://www.diamondapproach.org/glossary/refinery_phrases/reification -
I just stay logged in all the time if I can. Although I’ve had the issue of having to log in every time I click to a different section of the forum but I think that was because I was on incognito and didn’t know it.
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Thank you for putting yourself out there and expressing yourselves @Nos7algiK @LastThursday @Preety_India @Applegarden8 @Loving Radiance I agree in general and this may seem like splitting hairs but I see a clear distinction when complaining is also giving voice to a negative emotion regardless of how reasonable or even noble it might seem. When I give voice to that part of me that has a trace of violence in it, I can tell. Sometimes immediately or as it’s often been in the past, when I cool down and am reflecting. Maurice Nicoll said that all negative emotion all leads to violence. That may need to be framed by statements that at the present, are not with me. Another statement he made which stands better on its own and is somewhat related is the claim that a fully awakened person is actually incapable of violence. Yes, incapable,,,,, It deserves pondering I think. I have pondered it a lot and at times have felt like I’ve truly seen the truth in it. Arnold Keyserling said if a person can go 2 years (a Martian year) and not express any negative emotion at all then that person for the remainder of their life will never experience anything in a negative way again!
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Thank you, @Eternal Unity I appreciate you for letting me know,,,
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This ranges from the imagination of self deception to manifesting through visualizing in the Causal realm aka the Imaginal realm. It can be our biggest stumbling block or our saving grace. Like a lot of my posts, I use Fourth Way Jargon but I welcome all sincere perspectives which can often dovetail nice with one another. From my study of Gurdjieff’s magnum opus - Beelzebub’s Tales to his Grandson. He repeatedly points to man’s imagination, ungrounded with no embodiment amounts to contemporary humanities downfall. My homegrown condensed formula after study of the book. Prana = chi Kundalini = Prana = Kundabuffer = imagination Kundalini + 3 Centered Awareness = Holy Prana A kundalini awakening in which we become all enthusiastic and big eyed is what he called kundabuffer. The remedy for this is becoming grounded thru the body. This is just my take. All sincere perspectives are welcome.
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Purification of the emotional center as it’s referred to in the Fourth Way is the elephant in the room. This task isn’t accomplished in just a few months or even a couple of years. Some may scoff at this claim but I would hold the mirror up to reflect their derision as a pointer to how we are all prone to feed on negative emotion. As has been said by others, it’s not sex that makes the world ‘go around’ but the feeding on negativity. Look at our culture and other cultures and see how it manifests. Having grievances and keeping accounts, complaining, gossiping, displays of one-upman-ship in found in most areas of life including spiritual communities,,,, How many can say that they have seen these aspects in themselves previously or more importantly presently? Who is willing to potentially lose face this way? Who is willing to look at or even admit to a deeper level of self hatred that is often encountered by those who do very in-depth shadow work? Emotional mastery is realizing that we have a right NOT to feel and be negative, to paraphrase Maurice Nicoll. It is to have an awakened conscience. Gurdjieff remarked once that in the world, a man who has an awakened conscience among contemporary men will often be considered as,,,, well,,,, an embarrassment. To me, a sign of having emotional mastery is to truly wish others well. It means forgiveness or overlooking others transgressions. It means inspecting the world through a perceptual filter of Love. Am I there? No. I’ve had brief instances of it though. Also it’s how I make sense of the phrase “the kingdom of Heaven is at hand”.
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The Actualized.org forum moderators. ?❤️?
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I see people who are deeply insecure do this the most. Unconscious or low consciousness people in general tend to feed on negativity. Look at most media and news broadcasts,,,,
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Cool! I’ll add a little more with some links. Facets of Unity is just about my favorite book on the enneagram. By the way, I’m a counterphobic 6. Mapping Certain Levels of Reality We use the Enneagram as a tool and a map at specific junctures in our work of spiritual unfoldment. Initially, we use it as a psychological map that aids self-observation and study. Students also work with our theory of holes (see Essence, Almaas, 1986), which describes the loss of Essence and the consequent development of the personality. Then the work of uncovering the essential aspects proceeds. The theories of depth psychology on object relations, narcissism, and the like, constitute a major portion of the tools used to access the various essential dimensions. The Enneagram is then used at particular points as a map of certain levels of reality, in order to facilitate spiritual transformation. For example, work on the Passions and Virtues helps students in the process of purification of the soul. The Enneagram of Holy Ideas is most useful at the juncture between personal and cosmic realization of Being, as previously mentioned. As with other concepts from various schools, our approach utilizes the Enneagram for the purpose of direct, experiential understanding. It is not used only for psychological observations and typology, nor only for guiding various spiritual practices, but specifically for guiding and supporting open inquiry into one’s experience. Facets of Unity, pg. 16 This is the forth of nine excerpts. Link just below https://www.diamondapproach.org/glossary/refinery_phrases/enneagram-and-diamond-approach https://www.diamondapproach.org/glossary/refinery_phrases/enneagram-holy-ideas O https://www.diamondapproach.org/glossary/refinery_phrases/enneagram-specific-delusions https://www.diamondapproach.org/glossary/refinery_phrases/enneagram-specific-difficulties https://www.diamondapproach.org/glossary/refinery_phrases/enneagram-specific-reactions
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When a Feeling is Just a Memory by Dr. Jim Rosen ©2021 Dr. Jim Rosen When an emotion comes to the surface, how can you know if you're reacting to something from your past? It's actually easy to tell the difference between "feelings of now" and "feelings from the past." Feelings of now build slowly. They are like an acquired taste that develops over time, or like a piece of fruit that slowly ripens. Feelings from the past come in a wave or rush. They jump to the surface because they've been triggered. You seem to feel the feelings now, but in reality, you are remembering these feelings. Something just happened that triggered the memory. The feelings came in a rush, because your mind is a fast computer. Your mind noticed something in your present situation that is similar to the old happening. You may not be consciously aware of what your mind just did, but you can become aware. And awareness and understanding are important steps toward putting the old feelings behind you.
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Zigzag Idiot replied to Karmadhi's topic in Society, Politics, Government, Environment, Current Events
@Karmadhi Thank you for your work. I just wanted to leave one of my favorite quotes about the idea of evil. It meshes well with what you’ve come up with on your own. The Holy Idea referred to below is one of nine points on the enneagram. All Spiritual Work Would be Pointless if There Were Such a Thing as Ultimate Evil As we have seen, each Holy Idea is a characteristic of reality at all locations, at all times, and at all levels. Holy Truth explicates this understanding. Here, we are saying that not only is reality just one presence that is boundless and real, but that it is also positive, blissful, and wonderful. So not only is God one, but God is also wonderful and made of love. The truth, then, is loving and lovable, which is why we say in the Diamond Approach that you must love truth for its own sake. If your orientation is that you love truth so that it will change you and make you a happier person, your orientation is out of sync with how things objectively are; if you see reality as it is, you can’t help but love it. It follows, then, that objectively there is no evil. We see evil only when we perceive reality through a filter. A person who behaves in what we consider evil ways is a person acting through a distortion. In spiritual work, concepts of a devil, of dark forces, of some evil that exists on its own outside of the goodness of reality are considered manifestations of ignorance, both in terms of believing in such concepts and in terms of the manifestations attributed to such forces. All spiritual work would be pointless if there were such a thing as ultimate evil. Facets of Unity, pg. 215 Taken from: https://www.diamondapproach.org/glossary/refinery_phrases/evil -
There seems to be a tricky play here to balance that of fulfilling desires and maintaining discipline. I remember Ken Wilber once saying something about “to taste something until you’re full”. Also from another source the idea of the permanent witness bossing the automaton (body and instinctual drives) around. Every now and then though to throw it a bone or let it off it’s leash so as to pacify it.
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@Nightwise I see myself in a lot of what you describe. In the past I’ve seen where thinking too much has unnecessarily created anxiety. Thinking too much means I’m stuck in my head and detached from Being. One remedy for this is to sense the physicality of the body and find or reconnect with the hara. When the locus of my experience is felt to be either there or close by in the belly or sometimes possibly in the heart, there is a reconnection with being that is absent when I’m thinking too much. I can say only what is right for me. You might need other ideas or answers for a solution to what you seek. I hope this little bit of what I’ve shared can be of use though. Just speaking for myself. When my intention is to express from being instead of mind and there is the felt sense that I’m doing so, I feel clarity and a sense of trust that everything will work out. This contrasts from times when I’m thinking too much. Doubt and confusion then seems to surround everything in my experience with the mind chattering away offering up doom scenarios almost continuously. If what I’ve written resonates. The following two links contain many relevant quotes. https://www.diamondapproach.org/glossary/refinery_phrases/basic-trust https://www.diamondapproach.org/glossary/refinery_phrases/being
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Feminine compassion via wisdom and Love with a big L.
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Four types of suffering For whatever it’s worth,,, I copied this from the thread on George Gurdjieff. A legitimate swatter of hornets nests,,,, Intentional suffering is sometimes referred to as Conscious suffering in the Fourth Way. In Talks on Beelzebub's Tales, Bennett distinguishes four types of suffering - Unnecessary Suffering, Unavoidable Suffering, Voluntary Suffering and Intentional Suffering. Lets have a look at each of these to see if they can help our understanding: The first is Unnecessary Suffering. This would be the type of suffering that we incur because of our unreasonable attitudes and expectations towards others, from our ill-will, hatred and rejection of others, from doubt, possessiveness, arrogance and self pity. In other words, suffering arising from our self-importance. The second is Unavoidable Suffering. This would be the type of suffering that comes to us by accident or from events beyond our control, such as interpersonal conflicts, war, disaster, disease or death. Third, we have Voluntary Suffering. This would be the type of suffering that we take upon ourselves in order to accomplish a personal aim, such as an athlete who disciplines himself to win a race, or a student who labours to get good grades. And finally we have Intentional Suffering. According to Bennett, this would be the kind of suffering that we take upon ourselves in order to accomplish an impersonal or altruistic goal, one that is directed more towards service to others or to the Work, and not for any personal gain. Bennett assumes that this is what Gurdjieff meant by Intentional Suffering. From an article on the second Conscious Shock https://www.endlesssearch.co.uk/philo_is_talk_ae2005.htm
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“You can’t be an expert about anything until you’re at least 500 miles from home and you’re carrying a briefcase”. That was said to my father by a friendly competitor in a family business we had years ago. We had quite a few laughs about that one. Because there is definitely some truth to it. You know how people put you in a box and keep you there,,,
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@Preety_India I didn’t say that complaining was wrong or hint that others should be demonized for complaining. I specifically said that key in the practice was not judging or engaging in any self criticism. Its natural for people to justify, through imagination, their own complaining as a form of woundology. http://www.halexandria.org/dward044.htm “We have to bless the living crap out of everyone.”- Matt Kahn ??
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I started this thread based on the Fourth Way practice of not expressing negative emotions. In the Fourth Way practice of Self observation not engaging in self criticism is heavily stressed. Just observe objectively,,,, hands off self criticism or judgements. This is not an easy practice. Sometimes it’s described as a gathering of snapshots. I used to be a big complainer. I still complain at times,,,, I try to observe it though. Those snapshots inform me that at times I’m quite unconscious in these moments.