Kev Draper

thanks @outlandish and @Michael569 Good to hear your thoughts. I'm sure it varies from swimmer to swimmer but these key themes help to discern where to start. I was speaking to a triathlete last night who couldn't get over the fact that his heart rate was in the 130s when he swims but he felt his "perceived effort" was at almost maximum. He thought his hr was going to be into the 180s when he compared it to how he feels when he runs. There's a lot of hardwired fear for those not accustomed to being in the water and like you both say tricky to learn the new skills and muscle memory when not imprinted from the formative years. "Muscle harmony" is a lovely phrase - I shall be using that! Hopefully that makes it a skill worth trying to master for the athletes I'm working with and I can encourage them to relax and allow the gradual improvement to come to them. thanks again for the responses. Kev.

Why is it that so many strong, fit athletes find it so hard to learn to swim? I'm writing an article about why experienced athletes who can run or bike fast and / or long distances can't go beyond 25, 50 or 100m without collapsing on the side of the pool completely out of breath. I've come across so many over the years who just wont even try any more or who just really struggle with it. I've recently been coaching an elite, record-holding ultra runner who has found the transition of learning to swim steady, continuous front crawl SO frustrating! It's taken nearly a year but we are finally getting to the point where she can do it. The 'journey' has been interesting for her and for me! My hypothesis is that it is down to a combination of 5 or 6 factors the most significant of which are breathing (specifically exhaling sufficiently), anxiety due to lack of experience in the water, sinking legs / bad body position due to runner's body composition, stiff inflexible ankles causing unpropulsive kick overall a sub-optimal technique causing the athlete to "fight the water" perhaps also a driven mindset which says I MUST be able to do this! The article is coming together - I'm happy to share it when completed but I'd be interested if any of you have experienced this as an athlete or a coach and what you think causes it.

@outlandishah yes the law of diminishing returns kicks in! My marathon progression has gone 3:41, 3:14, 3:05, 3:02 (in 2017) agonisingly close to the sub3 and I can sense the line flattening off!! Must have one more crack at it! I think threshold sessions (typically 5-6 x 1 mile or 8 x 1km off 45s recovery) have yielded most progress for me over the last few years in terms of marathon pace speed. Having chipped my 1/2 marathon time down to 1:23.50 and with the ultra training miles in the bank I really ought to be capable of a sub 3 marathon. I have been extremely consistent with annual mileage (ave. 2500 for the last 10 years) with no major injuries and I think that has helped. I just enjoy trail running and I'm not so bothered about times and PBs as I was but still like the odd 'challenge' to give my training a bit of focus and variety. I'm pretty sure that more focussed and consistent strength and conditioning training would also make a difference but I choose to try to accomplish most of that by running hilly, trail routes most of the time. Cross training helps I believe - I also love swimming and cycling and this has probably helped to keep me from overdoing the running and injuring myself. For my ultra races the biggest challenge has been that I often get physically sick after 30 miles and can't keep anything down once my stomach has "shut down". Despite trying everything I can think of I can't get beyond this which is extremely frustrating and demoralising. I still managed to finish five 50 milers this year but in most cases the last 15 miles was pretty messy and unpleasant. Good luck with your running!

Hi there, I'm new to this forum but really enjoying this thread and the insightful comments from some well-read, thoughtful runners. I discovered running in my mid30s (now 51). I have used JD Running Formula for myself and with others I've helped to coach. I've found it quite a useful approach especially when targeting a certain time in a 10k or half marathon. I based most of my road marathon training around, but I fully agree that it has it's limitations. Discovering trail and ultrarunning has opened up my eyes to the other 95% of what makes for "mastery" in running (love that concept!) - breathing, energy sources, strength, efficiency, quietening the mind, connection to the trail, running mindfully, embracing the 'pain' and keeping moving etc, etc. Anyway good to 'meet' you all.