Arhattobe

@non_nothing All I know is I’ve been in non duality in 4 years, and the depth of my experience has increased immeasurably, but I also don’t remember shit. I don’t need to either. This has to do with the relation we have to memory. Egoic man, and “enlightened” man to a lesser degree (in beginning stages at least.) Attempt to gather and use as much information as they possibly can so they can “survive” in a better fashion. So their “survival” chances go up. This is why the egoic mind is constantly thinking. It is trying to think of every possibility, every scenario, use every piece of information, and etc to figure out how to survive really well. Upon awakening, enlightenment, and progress even after that. This relationship to the intellect, and memory changes, and one places very little importance on the obsession to control. To survive. One lives without worries & cares, but also without the strange counterproductive relationship an egoic man has to one’s memory and intellect. Hope that was clear

This is simply incorrect. It includes what you call “non duality”. But It does not stop there. It is not one dimensional. It does not answer every question with “who is it?” And “that is a concept”. It does not deny the reality of lives that are no in “non duality”, nor the humanity of those in “non duality.” It is nuanced, and paints a full picture of the spiritual path. Pre and post what you call “enlightenment.”

Direction, and the fact that things are not coincidences and random can become more evident. This direction, which is synchronicities for example might point towards. Can be experienced, seen and felt in higher stages on non duality. In earlier stages, and upon awakening, however, upon realising that there is a lack of conceptual, and forced meaning the directionless nihilism that results from that realisation might make one completely blind to this “direction” let’s call it.

Memory gets worse as you progress often actually. Most enlightened dudes memory gets worse and worse as the hey progress. Im speaking from experience but if you don’t want to take my word for it. Jeffrey Martin did a study on how enlightenment changed people’s cognitive functions and experience. He interviewed dozens of spiritual teachers, if not hundreds in his study.

This forum can be odd place at times. People engage in non dual talk, beat a dead horse to death multiple times, argue about semantics, almost with a religious fervour in fact, cling to an unquestioned belief system that masquerades and presents itself as a belief system beyond “belief systems” with an undertone of aggression as they pat themselves on the back. What is the use? Any of the behaviours I’ve listed greatly limit those that engage in such behaviours. Maybe honestly reflect on whether what I say has an ounce of truth in it. It might be beneficial or not. Regardless have a good one

I recommend iawaketechnologies. Co-signed by Ken Wilber.

There are rules and directions. Instinctually you want to avoid pain. That’s what drives you towards enlightenment in the first place. That drive. Is a part of the direction I speak of. That direction is what allows us to do our dharma. To awaken. To grow and etc.

Once one introduces one’s body to more intense energies than normal, via psychedelics, kundalini or whatever. At times the energy releases itself in an unusual fashion. Twitches, flailing around and other sorts of things can even be common place. Such happenings are called kriyas. Don’t worry about it. If such things are common place I would advise against and be careful against psychedelics.

@rounder if you have constant non dual awareness. Not “knowing”, but seeing and feeling wise, but have a lot of destructive behaviours and act “egoic” and etc. Then yes. Its quite normal actually.

You are not enlightened if “it” goes away. Even on a shallow level.

A dark night is simply ones self defence mechanisms falling away, and one’s fears coming out to play until they are both cleansed and removed from one’s system and does not only have to do with the loss of meaning.

Countless traditions say the point of life is to reach liberation, that all beings work their way up, live their karma and dharma until they reach liberation. That, the possibility that spirituality even exists and just life in general. One can sense purpose and direction in it. It might be meaningless in the traditional meaning of the word but it is not without direction, intelligence or without sense. Thise aspects of the self are what I refer to as dharma, as non conceptual meaning. Just clarifying myself. Not trying to convince you because I don’t think I can lol. Let’s agree to disagree. cheers

@Leo Gura Nihilism is not true. It might appear that way at first glance. When one plunged into non duality. I became extremely apathetic due to that when I awakened. Turned into somewhat of a cu** matter of fact. As I grew. I started experiencing, a direction that is inconceivable but can be felt in life. Just as one experiences the self. One can experience the dharma of the self. The growth of the self on a relative level within the absolute level. This purpose I would say is one facet on non duality. It is what allows for the possibility of non duality. I know you would disagree, but this is clear to me. Nihilism or nihilistic worldview is a byproduct of awakening but one needs to go further. From fake meaning, to meaninglessness to seeing the dharma. An egoic experiencenof this facet of reality is called god. Truth is those that experience in god, and those that experience in a nihilistic void. See two sides of one coin. The coin contains both sides, and only together can you have a clear view.

@Leo Gura This is true. Reaching non duality is nowhere near the end of one’s journey or growth. Although I will add it isn’t only newbies. I’ve had teachers who have been in non duality for decades and still suffer. Depends on level of advancement for lack of a better term.

@Mikael89 I’ve been in non duality for almost 4 years. Sentences like the apparent self suffers , and other non dual lingo are nonesense. There is suffering. It is felt. It is uncomfortable. 2 non dual teachers have even committed suicide.

Nihilism is bad for every facet of your being. There is undoubtably purpose in the dhamma.

Adyashanti, Ken Wilbur, ah almaas, jan esmann, Craig Holliday just to name a few all talk about how they suffer in non dual states, although some contradict themselves and claim otherwise. That it is the mind that suffers and it’s easily dropped. thats still suffering, and can be very intense. Ive suffered a lot myself in non duality. Liberation what non dualists refer to as enlightenment are not at all the same.

You can be irrational at any developmental level. Jordan Peterson is a rational person in his stage. Trying to teach common sense truths that people in stages above him should have learned, but did not and have not for various reasons. The liberal culture that might be developmentally beyond where he is great lacks necessary values that he teaches. Things like responsibility, order and etc. Ken Wilbers integral model talks about how each stage has to learn and integrate prior stages. If you don’t, you will demonise people, misunderstand them and run into problems. Jordan Peterson is not a problem. He will and can be a gateway for productive development in numerous disenfranchised groups of people.

@ground It’s my take on reality, and the path using Theravada Buddhism. Theravada Buddhism is quite a complete path. Anatta means there isn’t an eternal changeless substance like a soul. No any kind of self comes at arhatship, buddhahood after various non dual stages. first there is the individual. Then the first fetter “identity view” falls. A non dual self is born. Yet the non dual self is still in duality. It still has all the baggage of the self. Just easily detached with its newfound awareness. the existence of the issues are due to the fact that the non dual self. Is an individual experiencing non duality. true and full non duality, comes in the abcense of all these issues and the individual.

Enlightenment. Spirituality. Both are misunderstood things. Being in a constant mystical state. Becoming aware of a dimension of life beyond the sense. Both are nowadays synonymous with enlightenment. I myself awakened more than a few years ago, and when I was stable in that new state that then was beyond my reference point and understanding. When my insights and teachings of teachers matched up I thought. Yes. I’m there. Then like most other teachers and people who awakened. I played a multitude of mind games, and escapist tactics to pretend like I’m a Buddha. After a multitude of extreme shifts afterwards. I became aware that life, reality and dharma had much more to teach than a simple “recognition”. & even that recognition varies. Ramana Maharshi, and a random guy who awakens on here might both become aware of an aspect of life, but their degree of “understanding” is extremely different. I’ll use an example. Let’s take a concept like love. A child that loves his mom, and a 50 year old with grown child have different understandings of love. Nuanced, more subtle yet much deeper perspective exists in ramana. In fact Ramana himself isn’t fully enlightened, but my reasoning for that, and the fact itself are irrelevant and will cause nothing but a series of pointless arguments. I said it just to catch your attention a bit lol. I know more than you. Make use of me. I’m here to help. Ask me anything

@outlandish Thought activity is multi layered. This is an oversimplification but will do for this response. The top layer: Gross thoughts, inner dialogue, conscious fantasies or where you “think out loud.” This surface layer, however is like the tip of an iceberg. All the activity in the top layer is due to hundreds of layers of subtle activity, some of which you may be semi conscious of (the background chatter,) and many that you are unconscious of. Eg primal thoughts, self defence mechanisms, muscle memory, and modes of being eg fear of the unknown. One can have a quiet top most layer of mind, in a non dual state. As I had been in the past, but yet still have massive traumas influencing every act, and every action. Such a state might seem thoughtless, some might seem it Sahaja samadhi, but in reality you are simply unconscious of what is motivating you. Numb, very perfectly clear. Now in regards to me, and your question. The top most layer, the background noise layers are empty. Yet there are undoubtably layers that I am unconscious of that keep me from “complete enlightenment”. Arhatship. I know this because they fall away, and my experience changes dramatically because of them.

Mystical states, and non dual awareness by themselves do not mean much. You can have horrific experiences, depression and be an all around dick while experiencing both. You can also be way more deluded than the average “dualistic” person. People’s scope of spirituality, and understanding of enlightenment is extremely limited, and to some they will discover with great pain how delusional they are one day. This is why the Buddhists said the dharma will be lost in the future, because the teachers you look up to. The belief systems you’ve created, disguised as beliefs beyond beliefs, are one dimensional and for lack of a better term just as false as your previous belief systems. It’s quite sad. Yet partly our fault for denying our humanity and seeking escapism instead of growth. If you are in such a state. Move on, and you might actually grow towards a more nuanced perspective of life.

I’ll post the relevant part of the sutta called ”Brahma-nimantanika Sutta” and then expand upon it. The Blessed One said: "On one occasion recently I was staying in Ukkattha in the Subhaga forest at the root of a royal sala tree. Now on that occasion an evil viewpoint had arisen to Baka-Brahma: 'This is constant. This is permanent. This is eternal. This is total. This is not subject to falling away — for this does not take birth, does not age, does not die, does not fall away, does not reappear.[1]And there is no other, higher escape.' "So I — having known with my awareness the train of thought in Baka Brahma's awareness — as a strong man would extend his flexed arm or flex his extended arm, vanished into the root of the royal sala tree in the Subhaga forest in Ukkattha and appeared in that brahma world. Baka Brahma saw me coming in the distance and, on seeing me, said, 'Come, good sir. You are well-come, good sir. It has been long, good sir, since you arranged to come here — for this, good sir, is constant. This is permanent. This is eternal. This is total. This is not subject to falling away — for here one does not take birth, does not age, does not die, does not fall away, does not reappear. And there is no other, higher escape.' "When this was said, I told Baka Brahma, 'How immersed in ignorance is Baka Brahma! How immersed in ignorance is Baka Brahma! — in that what is actually inconstant he calls "constant." What is actually impermanent he calls "permanent." What is actually non-eternal he calls "eternal." What is actually partial he calls "total." What is actually subject to falling away he calls "not subject to falling away." Where one takes birth, ages, dies, falls away, and reappears, he says, "For here one does not take birth, does not age, does not die, does not fall away, does not reappear." And there being another, higher escape, he says, "There is no other, higher escape."' The 10 fetters of Buddhism exist in all who are not yet awakened. Awakening merely gets rid of the first. Body identification. However, with the body identification seen through. As long as one’s fetters and karmic body remain. Whether one is in an awakened state or not. The energies of most awakened is still tethered to the body. The denial of this is as the Buddha said an “evil viewpoint”, a product of mara. The ego. Attempting to escape what it is clearly bound by. Pretending one has graduated from Harvard when one is in elementary school. Worse are those with half baked glimpses saying the same thing when they aren’t even awake. Mere talking points and belief systems that deny being beliefs. A individuated man, trapped in body identification denying his reality. This sort of delusion is not a good foundation for growth. This sort of self deceit will slow down one’s progress. Awakening is good, but karmic annihilation of all tendencies, of all that tethers is to a body to an individual, who may or may not experience non duality is the point of the true path. The pure dharma. That comes about with a holistic approach. The 8 fold noble path. Seek growth, not escape. Seek to learn not to display knowledge or to teach. Good luck

@StephenK Certainly not an arhat. Arhat to be doesn’t mean I am but (hopefully) will be. Ones facial expression, facial tension and overall look communicates the level of karmic tension in one’s body. As you progress and get to higher states the tension level of people or lack thereof becomes noticable. I do not know Daniel Ingram, but based on that he certainly seems like he has a long way to go. People that claim to be arhats are completely clueless to how much karmic baggage they have and how “deep the rabbit hole goes”. I have not seen a single teacher in modernity I would consider an arhat. The closest people would be Master sheng yen, Ramana, Suzuki. Based on physical tension and energy reading. I do not actively do any sort of practice, but do recommend vipassana. In regards to self inquiry it is active and thought based its pointless. With that line of inquiry or the understanding you have of it in the back of your mind. Meditating can be fruitful though. Book wise : Oshos pathless path is a good for those not awake/beginners, but I recommend a more holistic approach once you are actually on the path. Check out accesstoinsight.org and their summary of the Theravada path for that @WindInTheLeaf Your intellect is running amok thinking it’s going to get somewhere meaningful. It will not.

@outlandish Yes. Mooji was more helpful to me to awaken that people way beyond him, but again his teachings are one dimensional, filled with falsehoods and etc. Theravada is the most advanced meaning It touches upon all aspects of life. Realms of experience. Traps. Stages, and nuances that aren’t touched upon in any teaching. Within theravada I recommend the sutta pitaka. I will make a thread and post relevant suttas there later. @WindInTheLeaf Your thought pattern and reasoning is kind of incoherent and all over the place. Sorry. I don’t understand your point.