Bauer1977

Check out this article. It offers almost as much understanding as a person needs to understand free will as an illusion. I do understand that this may not be enough to settle the debate for everyone. I think previous spiritual experiences and a certain knowledge level of spiritual concepts and various sciences play a part as well in how believable it is for any individual. But the evidence presented here is very compelling. The Illusion of Choice_ Free Will and Determinism.pdf

OK everyone, I have come to a conclusion that seems to satisfy my curiosity to this query. I have contemplated on it, and it appears the "free will" piece to the overall puzzle of everything that I am working on has been put into its place. This satisfies my query, that does not mean it will satisfy yours of course.... Here is what I have concluded: Free will is in fact an illusion. However, the Ego does still possess will power which does give it at least some "control", although very limited. The best metaphor I came up with while in a state contemplation is that of a garden hose. Consider our lives to be controlled in a similar fashion that a garden hose controls water. The amount of water, and the speed and direction at which the water goes through the garden hose is controlled by the hose or the tap. However, the interaction and movement between water droplets within the hose is not (quantum mechanics). The hose does not have complete control over how the water splashes and shifts around inside the hose while travelling through it. I feel that as people we may not have a choice in what we do, but we do have some control over our response to that choice. Take this example, the issue of free will was eating me up. I couldn't rest until resolving this matter to a degree that satisfied my need. I googled alot of articles, I read a book and joined this forum and started this thread in search of that relief. Those were options I controlled. I could have just joined this site and read an article, but not read the book. The issue could have been resolved without the book, as really the articles covered all the same info so it didn't actually help to resolve the matter. I didn't pay for it, I found it online. The fact that I read that book affected nothing and no one else within the experience (the illusion) in any way. Yet, I did read it as a choice in pursuit of the answer. It was an act of will power, but the fact that the problem was eating me up while it was without a solution, was clearly not free will in any way. The problem landed on my plate, what I did to resolve it shows that I did at least have a small amount of control. That's it.... thoughts?

I can't speak to the comments of others on this issue. But for me, I know for certain that time is an illusion because I have had many premonition dreams in my life, mostly as a child. I spent most of my adult life trying to find an explanation for them that made sense and felt right to me. I read the Conversations with God series, and the idea of premonition dreams and time is covered very well. I contemplated on that info for several days, and that ultimately led to or triggered an enlightened experience of realization. It became so clear to me that time was an illusion. I was so in the moment that my body was frozen. And I just keep thinking "there is no where to be, I am already here. There is nothing to do, it's all already done." and those realizations blew my mind... figuratively, but sort of literally as well. As a result of this experience, for me, the illusion of time is now an undeniable truth. I know it doesn't mean that you know understand, but hopefully it helps you have confidence in that the correct path for your search can lead in that direction. That is why I started to really consider the idea of free will. I have had premonition dreams, and I know that time is an illusion. So how does free will fit into that? But I also know that my premonition dreams were scenes that played out in reality within a few days every time. Never longer than a week at the most. So I do feel there is a limit to whats set with regard to time within the realm of experience. Its an interesting topic for sure.

Thanks again for all your input guys. I feel I have better understanding now than I did prior to this comment stream. Cheers

I understand what you are trying to say. But to me, and from my current perspective you need to understand that you look as though you are talking in riddles. You seem to understand that I don't understand what you are trying to tell me, but you still limit your explanation to that riddle. I find this trap appears all the time in the spiritual process. The explanations from a particular perspective are not relevant to that of another. Maybe your insight makes total sense to you, and is the answer you need. But it makes no sense to me at all. I am looking for a perspective and explanation that is in tune with my own understanding. The comment earlier in the chain here regarding quantum mechanics fits for me. I studied quantum mechanics 15 or 16 years ago. Long before I ever encountered the conundrum of free will. I can easily see a viable relationship there. And that is where the direction my investigation will now go. So many people conclude that the investigation ultimately loses its value and is therefore pointless, but the investigation is the purpose. I understand that the day may likely come when all perspective is lost and all "work" will have seemed to have been pointless.... but until the day, for me the investigation is the vehicle needed to reach that point.

Some really good posts here. Thanks everyone for your input. I agree with a lot of what I read, and not so much with some of the other comments. I appreciate all of them though. This query of mine is something I am genuinely trying to work out. I obviously can't make everyone understand why it matters. And I accept that one day perhaps it won't matter anymore. But for the time being, it is something I hope to find a resolution to insomuch that it satisfies my need. Cheers

I like this answer.... thanks. I read a bit on quantum mechanics 15 years ago. I think I will refresh my understanding on it again. I can see how that could work.

By knowing, it will move me closer to my goal. By finally realizing that time is an illusion, and gaining a genuine understanding of how that is possible triggered an enlightened experience in me and forever changed my perspective. And in doing so elevated it to a new level. I suspect that definitively resolving the issue of free will would do the same, perhaps more. I suspect only someone with a very advanced level of enlightenment will be able to answer this question with certainty. But I know I am not the first to explore the idea, so I am curious what conclusions others have come up with. Finding out the answer would mean a great deal to me. I am unsure how you can have the idea that the answer to this query is meaningless.... but you are entitled to that perspective if it serves you. That particular conclusion doesn't serve me unfortunately.

Sure... it will change my understanding, and therefore change my perspective. Developing one's perspective is the very basis of spiritual work. If declaring such information meaningless is your approach, how can you possibly develop your own spiritual awareness?

No, it's not about knowing how my life will end either. It's about finding true happiness. Becoming 1 with nature. I am leaning towards a YES to this inquiry.... but I am not yet fully convinced. It can't be fully realized and experienced until all doubt or uncertainty is removed. So I am curious what other spiritual seekers have come up with on the topic.

It matters to me. The answer helps me understand my true nature. How can I progress down my spiritual path if I don't have the answers I need to do so? It's not about not doing anything and just sitting on a rock. It's a matter of Oneness. How can Oneness be possible of people have any free will at all? Yet, it seems as though some of us "choose" to pursue this type of information and run into these road blocks. Getting the answers takes time and effort.... but is that all just part of the script, or is there actually some control on some level somehow? It also seems logical to me that if our lives are scripted, that is a genuine way to remove all suffering from a person's life. It takes away any ideas the Ego has, and with removal of all responsibility and fear, true happiness would have to be the result.

@winterknight Given that free will is an illusion, and I am fully onboard with that idea. Does that then mean that our individual lives are scripted from conception, and even including conception? If we truly are nothing but awareness, and every thought and decision is given to us, what role do we have in our own growth, development and enlightenment? If there really is zero control, coupled with the knowledge that time is also an illusion, doesn't it seem as though every moment of creation within the illusion of duality would have to be completely scripted throughout all time? How could it be any other way given the laws and structure of the universe?

This conversation that you guys are having has nothing to do with the original question.... if we have no free will and if time is an illusion as well, does that then confirm that our life's are scripted before they even begin? Those who reach enlightenment in this life time were meant to, and those who don't, weren't. The state of things in the world is exactly as its scripted to be. Nothing can be affected by information that wasn't already pre-determined to be affected by this type of information. That appears to be the situation as far as I can tell. We appear to all be on a pre-determined path, forever and ever....