Bauer1977

I have to ask then, why are you on a chat site if that's your opinion of sharing such ideas amongst one another? That is the piece that doesn't fit

This is true I know.... but its relinquishing that ownership of it that I am finding so difficult. I will try the Self-Inquiry technique that Winterknight pointed me to. Seems like it might offer a path to a deeper level of mediation at the very least.

Ok, thanks. I hadn't realized there was a link there at first. I am new to the site. I will give it a try. I appreciate your help.

Should I be trying to adopt the perspective of me as the source instead?

Me as Ego is trying to surrender.

OK Winterknight, I will give you a try as I appear to have reached a point spiritually that I am unsure how to approach. While mediating the last several weeks, I appear to have come to the doorstep of what people call Ego death. Lately I have tried to resolve a few uncertainties in my mind as a part of this conundrum. Like that of free will and acceptance of the NOW in every moment. Thru various spiritual experiences I have absolutely no doubt that time and free will are both illusions. I won't get into those in detail here, but a spiritual experience is as definitive a level of proof that we can possibly expect. So given that, I do believe whole heartedly that we, as Ego, do not control anything in our experience except for the will power that we possess. Which I view in practice as just being a choice we have with regard to our level of acceptance of any given situation and moment. Having said that, the idea of surrendering complete and total control of my life, and my individuality to God has proven difficult. I am very hesitant. I believe I have had many lives prior to this one. I also believe I have an old soul that has been around for a very long time. And it makes me feel that surrendering my will to God would mark the end of a very long legacy that included these lifetimes, a lot of effort, and a lot of suffering. These are the thoughts that enter my mind as resistance, obviously from Ego. I am trying to let go in every way that I have ever read about, but this task has so far been fruitless. I honestly have no ideas on what I can do to overcome the resistance of Ego on this, and to just let go. And I know this resistance is a very serious strong type that I have never encountered before. As not only do I feel doubts, but I feel a real lack of desire and will to even try to overcome this step. So Ego has definitely dug in here, which I guess is to be expected from what I have read. So given that, and given that you have seemingly been thru this surrendering.... can you offer any advice on how to push thru this and accept my true reality/nature as the source? Cheers, Ron

I like this... thanks for your contribution!! So you feel that soul, although in a state of being, is not also in an illusory state of separation from the source? Because my thought is that my soul is what I refer to when I say that I have likely lived many lives before this one. Soul is the only constant in that string of lives. The purpose of this string of lives appears to be a collective expansion of consciousness over those lifetimes, ultimately leading a human life to Enlightenment (as per David R Hawkins). If that's the case, once the soul has guided a human life to Enlightenment, doesn't it seem reasonable that it to would dissolve back into the source, thus losing its status as an individual soul?

It's not about belief. Your assuming you understand my situation, and you simply do not. The conundrum I was looking to resolve here wasn't as involved as you think. Note my first post in stating that I know for certain the free will is an illusion, I am also very clear on the fact that time is an illusion due to multiple spiritual experiences that I have had in my life. The only loose end I had was trying to resolve the idea of whether or not life is scripted. I know now by the experience of finding an internal peace when contemplating the matter that is not. The position I am appears to be quite different from what you think. Its nice of you to try and help, and I do appreciate your concern . But on this matter I am good. I have moved past it now and am focusing on finding a higher degree of acceptance with my life as it truly is in each moment, as it plays out. Relinquishing the idea of control at the ultimate depths and truly surrendering all control to God. If you have any info on that, please pass it along. Cheers

Well, I am certainly in no position to confirm or deny if that perspective is right or wrong. All I know for sure is that when i felt that way, my life was miserable. Having that perspective didn't serve my life very well. Any sort of happiness or joy was impossible. Adopting a more positive take has helped me enjoy life more. So whether the idea of an all loving God is right or wrong, the fact is that I can't think of a better way to live. I can appreciate things and enjoy things now. Having a positive attitude accomplishes that at the very least. And if it was all a big mistake, then by the time you die, it won't have mattered anyways. At least I will have experienced less suffering and a bit more joy in the meantime

Such comments and perspectives do not shake me up. I appreciate the fact that you took the time to share your opinion on the matter. Each path is different. Gaining the perspective of others is sometimes helpful, sometimes not. That's the point of such an exercise. These comments can also help others. Maybe from the content or maybe just from the fact that it encourages them to consider things that they hadn't considered much before. Either way, it's all good.

I think I can agree with that. Thanks for taking the time to add your thoughts

But if the soul is Enlightened already, wouldn't it be impossible for it to be a separate idea from the source then? In this case, it seems as though your saying there is no soul. But I tend to think that we do have a soul as part of the illusion. Therefore, it seems to me that the soul cannot be fully Enlightened until its ushered a human into Enlightenment.

I appreciate your comment. I agree with that perspective. It seems as though it is the only possible way if I understand things correctly. Cheers

Do you really think that? It seems like a state of mind I had for several years when I feel as though my Ego was really fighting back on me for trying to reduce its impact on my perspective. It was a depression. It had a hold over me for 5 years before i finally managed to get past it. I don't feel that way anymore, but I can relate to what you have said

Not sure if my experience will help you or not, but I will offer it up and let you decide. I have studied spirituality for 16 years. from years 10 - 15 I went through a very deep and dark depression that I believe resulted from my spiritual work. I feel it was Ego's way of fighting back. I am not Enlightened at this point, but that is the goal, even so the depression is gone now. In my opinion Enlightenment will eliminate all suffering once it is realized, but the process of chipping away at Ego over time in order to get there is the cause of a lot of suffering along the way.

My understanding is,..... that would be the Ego realizing its alive right now. The Ego can die, the True Self or Higher Self can't.

Close, but not quite. I guess another way of wording it would be to say do souls also realize that they are part of the illusion and become Enlightened when the person reaches Enlightenment? If so, does soul dissolve back into the source then as well? As it would seem to have served its purpose as an illusory separate entity from the source as well.

Given the depths of your wisdom then.... Ego death = Soul death? Or no?

All I can really say is that whole experience sounds awful. I feel for you. I have been through depression myself. It went undiagnosed for 4 years before I cracked/broke down and went to see a doctor. I took Zoloft for 8 months. It helped a lot. All I can do is suggest that you see a doctor to get your depression treated first. Don't worry about the other stuff until you get back to a state of mental health.

Look folks, I am not interested in having a critique of my wording or the fact that I am posting it here. Or the high and mighty who have only one view of spirituality and feel it necessary to judge, or feel that its the wrong question worded in the wrong way and what that means to them for whatever reason. I am looking to see how other people feel about the idea that Enlightenment is not just a case of Ego death, but also of soul death.

That isn't much of an endorsement for a message board, from someone who is commenting on a message board.....

Do you have a link?

What I am really asking, is about the idea of there not just being Ego death with Enlightenment, but there also being soul death. The general idea is that the soul is around for many human lifetimes. It takes that long to reach Enlightenment. True or not, I can't say. But the fact that there is a soul is hard to argue. So once a person becomes Enlightened, does the soul also discover its own true nature and dissolve back into the source as well?

For there to be nothing is impossible. What if there was no universe, no God, nothing at all. There would be no awareness of the fact that there is nothing. So it wouldn't matter anyways. God created the realm of illusion and separation because experience and creation is better than just having stillness and perfection. Something is better than nothing. That's it.

Yes, I agree.... but what about the idea of souls dissolving back into the source once the human life that they have nurtured reaches Enlightenment? The whole structure of everything seems to point to an end game for any sense of separation from the source once the vale of the illusion has been lifted. That seems to be the whole purpose for any entity that appears to exist as a separate form, including a soul. Enlightenment on the human level is seemingly not just Ego death, but soul death as well.