Azrael

Is it possible to learn snowboarding by jumping out of a helicopter, landing on the rocky mountains and driving down with 100 mph? Not trying to be rude here, but this is kinda what you want to try. Yes, of course you can start meditation with such a technique, but the chance that you will last more then 4 weeks with that is .. kinda no existent. Meditation - for most people - isn't a easy habit to implement in their life because you don't understand at first, it is kinda strange and you feel no immediate advantages. Maybe a little calmness but nothing big probably. So, I'd say just go with 20-30 minutes "Do Nothing" on a chair in the first 3 months, see how you do and whether you like it. And then, if you are more confident and it seems as it is a real habit now, go with the more advanced stuff. I started with 20 minutes "detaching from my thoughts" (didn't know about Do Nothing back then), then increased the sitting time after 3 months to 60 minutes, did the self-inquiry meditation / contemplation for a few months, then heard about "Do Nothing", did that for a while and then finally after 5-6 months switched to strong determination sittings. Because at the time I did that it wasn't a question anymore whether I'd really stick with my meditation habit. And then it is way easier to go through some immense pain and not fall off the habit. The beginning is hard enough and a lot of people don't make it through it even with a technique like "Do Nothing". So, you gotta see for you own. You establish a real habit with starting easy and seeing the big picture, that in a few month or years you are sky-rocking it with that. I'm now meditating for a good year and never would've thought that this would be thing that gives me the most pleasure in my day. When I started out it really fucked with my head a lot.

It is probably just a phase and will pass. I'd say enjoy this phase and remember how it makes you feel so that you can use that to calm yourself down a little when things are getting more messy. How you feel in meditation seems to by cyclic. So you have some phases in which the shit purges out of your system and you are very confused and feel strange and in other ones you feel - as right now - just very fine and calm. This is all good. Just go on and enjoy the ride

If you really didn't move, nothing. That's the whole technique. I'd guess that you sat on a chair OR you have some meditation experience OR you're just a very chilled dude with not as much tension in your body as I had when I started out. (We are all individuals and start off from different points with that.) So here is what you can do: increase your sitting to 90 minutes and try it again try it with a cushion on the floor in a lotus like posture (I go with Burmese for example) Pain will come my friend if you use one of these two points or both.

I wouldn't shoot for a 3 hour strong determination sitting if you have no meditation experience. I would suggest to you to meditate with something like "Do Nothing" for 3 months and then maybe try out strong determination sittings for 30 minutes. If you do this one time it will maybe bring your some clarity but it won't last long and so you probably will never do it again because it is the worst situation you can put yourself in (body is hurting + mind has no answers + you could change it but you don't) and it doesn't help you with your journey in the long term. Start a meditation habit and then with some practice you can do the advanced stuff in a few months. Of course you could do it right away, but it's like giving a kid the best car do drive a race when it doesn't even know how to ride a bicycle. No offense from my side, just trying to help you out with this! And strong determination sittings are very deep waters to learn in swimming.

Yep, but as I mentioned you will transcend your normal sitting time - for me it's 60 minutes in the morning - so it doesn't matter if I move or don't move. I do not feel any pain or discomfort, my body just sleeps and I feel completely paralyzed after a few minutes. It's really nice. On good evenings I push my limits. Currently I'm working on sitting 120 minutes without pain. I can do it with pain and suffering but I'll need some more sits to get through that. 120 minutes is a number though ...

@Saitama, sounds like a great idea. Truth is, you'll do a few dozen sits and through that your whole relationship to pain and suffering will completely change. I mean it will change to the point that you can be at complete peace with pain. You can actually get ecstasy out of it. But to get to this, you gotta commit to the hard work first. But it will be worth it, dude. I illustrated the purging process with an analogy I borrowed from Alan Watts in this post, you maybe wanna check it out. It gives you some perspective: Cheers to you, you just started digging the gold

Maan, I love your post. You have just summed up my first strong determination sittings. You're doing great. You probably have just purged the amount of shit you would've with 3 months of normal "bliss" meditation. Look the next days for some silence and peace in your head. Maybe you'll find some. But, if you want to make this a habit (what I can really recommend) I'd definitely say you start off a little slower. Cut back some minutes, maybe go with 30-60 minutes at first and sit this through for a few dozen times. What will happen is if you do that you will be in complete peace and silence after you've transcended this time span. Then maybe go a little bit on. Cheers to you, can you see how this could be the fastest way of waking up? It just rips everything out of you, throws it in your face and lets it crash onto the floor. That is real progress.

I'd say this is not the worst habit to have, don't you think? However, I would just let it be, look at it, be astonished by what nature puts out into my world and then turn my back on it. But it seems to me that you have found your way with this one. Cheers to you, dude!

The answer to your question is very simple: No. Sleep as much as you need - for me it's 8-9 hours and I seem to need a lot of it if I'm pushing it with my spiritual pursuits. Cut the bullshit, not the essential things to a great life. Sleep enough and well, meditate enough and daily, eat good and have a healthy schedule. There is always enough other bullshit to cut. I meditate every morning for 60 minutes, so I have to get up sooner as I had to when I wasn't meditating. So I'm choosing to go to sleep a little earlier and cut a little bit being on youtube, watching tv, reading books or whatever I do at night. This is worth it in the long run.

First of all, if you wanting to "accept everything" in terms of try to liking it, stop that. This won't work very well - as you probably experienced yourself - and is phony. Why should you like something you ... actually dislike? That's bullshit. What you can do though is to stop giving a shit. Meaning, you say to yourself that "it is okay that ... happens". It is okay that I'm stuck in traffic, it is okay that I don't like myself. It is okay that I can't see that I'm awake, it is okay that my job bores the crap outta me. If you implement this phrase "it is okay that ... happens" you start you accept the occurrence of any event just because by nature of its happening it should be that way. Everything is okay - just because it happens. Just because this is nature and nature seems to want this event to happen. If you do that you start to distance your involvement in all these "external" events, so this gives you some peace. Some silence. Some knowing that this is just the way it is. From then on - and only then - you can start to take real action to change things. Because you are not bound to them anymore. You erased your personal conflict with it. Then you can just decide to say goodbye to the events that no longer should be around you. And if this doesn't work, if you can't take another job - if it's crappy - or if you can't attract that one girl or you don't make the amount of money you want ... you just go back to square one and say "it is okay that ... happens". Matt Khan told me this way of going about it in this video and I love that approach.

Basically, you have do decide for yourself what to do in which state of the journey. If Leo is talking about changing the process, you always have to see that he is at some point in his journey and you might be at another one. Maybe Looking doesn't do much good at all for you? Maybe, it's the technique that lets you have a sudden awaking? If you still have such a strong sense of yourself as a fundamental - not part of this world - thing, then yes go dig deep enough 'till the shit purges and the self starts to break into pieces. Now, I'm for example are not awake yet but my sense of self is kind of shattered, laying on the ground. I had a lot of realizations that did that and so I'm at a stage at which I actually stop seeking that much, but more accepting that everything as it is is the way it has to be and is perfect. That's my current challenge, to actually see that. So, the journey has a lot of routes and a lot of let's say burdens to overcome. Investigate deeply what this is currently for you and then take the technique that fits it the best to work on it.

There can actually be nothing in something else. This is all just your mind separating things, creating more and more tiny little objects and interplays of these objects to get a picture of the world. Me, as an computer scientist, we always try to define everything very correctly and narrowed down to the point. This is all good and nice to get shit working well in a conceptual nature like machines but this is not how the actually world is - I guess. The actual world could be probably more viewed as a big intermingle of one big object - if we want to use this label. So this object is me, you, everything in between, space every form of space and even nothingness. All one big thing. That's why there is no actual "watcher" in your head. It's more like that you have such an great inter-mingle in your head that it is even able to create new inter-mingles - called thoughts. But of course we get all mixed up by this because 99.9% of the people trap themselves in their own realities. It's kinda funny actually, if you look at it this way. We are such an "advanced" peace of the big inter-mingle, we can't even believe that we are part of it. So, point here is: Don't get caught up in concepts. The content of thoughts won't help you do get deeper to the roots. Kinda look more of what the essence of - what you are looking at - is. Get it as an intuitive perception, not as a narrowed down defined peace of the cake. Cuz It's just all cake. Thanks for this interesting conversation any ways, @Emerald Wilkins

In meditation one seems to get quit often in these little pains. Your shoulders are feeling strange, your back starts to heart. Your legs feel weird, your face has some kind of tension in it. Who is actually experiencing this suffering that seems to arise through these phenomenons? Is it the actual pain itself that triggers it, is it your mental talk that produces it, your mental images, your feelings? What is going on anyway? Why do you seem to get nervous or scared if pain arises? Why is it that this one perception triggers that? I had my deepest insights last year investigating these kind of questions while sitting through immense pain with strong determination sittings. This brought me to a whole new place of realization and also helped in not feeling any pain anymore sitting for 60-90 minutes motionless.

You maybe wanna look into the nature of space. Your starting point could be something like "Space is the potential room that gives forms the ability to be born, exist and then die." That is really general and abstract. You can go very deep on several components of this statement. I personally find space extremely interesting and I often try to get a sense of it in meditation. What is space really? And then, if space exists there must be the other side of space. The opposite, because everything seems to come two-sided. So, what is non-space? What is non-existence and how could you possible wrap your head around something that by nature is not something. Is space a form itself or is it the place that allows forms to be? Is space 3-dimensional or does it even go higher in dimensions? Have you ever thought about that? I think that space itself, the relationship between existence and nothingness, is the starting point of all spirituality. How I see it, this is the point that allows spirituality to even be a possibility. Very interesting stuff. Is our world - how we can sense it - just a little tiny bit of an never ending fractal of possible realities all existing simultaneously and at the same "place"?

I got several pages for you, buddy

I cried or fell into immense laughter several times. It's normal. The more and the deeper you purge the shit out of your system, the more will set free and needs a mean to express itself. I know that this can be confusing in the beginning. But it's just the process. Every time this happens just think about you making real progress here, you just released some sneaky social condition, fear or what ever was deeply programmed into your psyche for way too long.

I'd agree that you really have to go deeper in your meditation sittings to get to new realizations and stages of the journey. Yes, I can verify that with my own experience. However, I'd like to also stress that it is not as linear as you put it. It's not that every time you go deeper in a meditation that you instantly get new realizations and go further to your enlightenment. You can't go towards your enlightenment any ways. It seems to me that I have phases in which I set the bar of deepness in my meditations a little higher and then in other phases I get rewarded for that work. For me it's more like a pendulum with that and it is even not that predictable. I had strong determination sittings that deepened my meditation but didn't bring my much further on my journey. I had other sits that are kind of mainly "responsible" for where I'm at know. If I go back to your illustration I'd say that the most "linear" progress in terms of deepness of meditation and going further on your journey is probably done by strong determination sittings. That's my experience. But as I said, it's very a broad generalization. Thanks for you view on this, though!

Ahh, I thought about this issue myself a couple of times. When I started out I just did self-inquiry and then when Leo told me about "Do Nothing" and "Strong Determination Sittings" I did that for a while. Then after some time I did a different meditation every day. Mindfulness (labeling sensations) meditation, self-inquiry, Do Nothing, contemplating death etc. Every day another one. After playing around with this for some time I just figured out what brings me the best results - meaning what meditation and enlightenment lifestyle seems to constantly bring me new realizations and new phases of the journey. That is of course highly variable for every person but I found out for myself that I can resonate a lot with Zen and its way of approaching it. I read a lot about it, studied and study everything that Alan Watts put out and designed my own strategy. (Though strategy is really the wrong word here.) And it consists of "Do Nothing" + "Strong Determination Sittings" for 5 days in a week for 60 minutes per day and on the weekend I will do one clean self-inquiry (as Leo told us) and one self-inquiry with contemplating death + strong determination sitting on both days as well. I'm kinda addicted to that shit as you probably know by now. I do this because "Do Nothing" is one old Zen way to go about it + I use the self-inquiry to get "new things to the top" and then just let them there for a week and observe them. In the last few days I listened to a lot of Matt Khan talks. In the first one I really judged that guy for being wu-hu and shit because the way his videos look like. Then I watched just one video and was blown away by what he has to say. So I use that in my day to get to new realizations. Basically, try out what works for you and then stick to that. You maybe want to add here and there a few new routines or get rid of a few if they don't work, but actually there is no one way. There is no way at all. You can sense over time what leads you in more trouble and then stick to that, because trouble is what you are looking for (your ego won't die w/o struggles - at least mine does not want to). If I had to only use one technique it would be strong determination sittings. Three sits back in November 2015 changed me lastingly what still is incredible to me. So this really seems to work as Shinzen Young pointed out. Good question!

I find your observation quite interesting. My first big paradigm shift about sensations were a few months ago when I was doing a lot of strong determination sittings. Now, I see that perceptions for most people - me included - are for most parts still thoughts. There is something involved in a perception that as you say exists for itself - but as we normally experience it is always combined with a preconceived thought. We basically have no idea what a perception really is. I had this realization after I sat for 90 minutes straight the first time. I went through that phase of immense suffering but I got through that to the phase in which you simple see pain. Now, real pain is just another sensation. It is not bad at all. Suffering makes pain bad. But you can't see that for the most time because you have never experienced pain. You just know suffering, which could be described as non-acceptance of the pain. And where does this non-acceptance come from? Probably from a lot of very basic understandings of how this world works and what do to and what not to + a lot of sense experiences. Now, non-acceptance is just made up. It's just another thought. So the actual perception of pure pain doesn't reveal itself to you if don't use techniques like strong determination sittings to provoke that. As you do that and break the foundations of your common reality apart, not only a lot of things in your deep psyche seem to rearrange but you also feel like you were fooled the whole time. I had times in which I gained intense please and ecstasy from the feeling of pain because I got rid of the suffering. So, to sum it up. In my experience are perceptions a great way to see what is real and what is not. Go deep on that one. Question everything there is 'till there is nothing left then pure it. Think about it, as you read the lines there is a voice in your head reading and understanding it w/o much effort. Are you really perceiving this? Or are there a series of automatic thoughts involved and everything you sense is a very abstract product of the actual sensed perception. @Emerald Wilkins Thank's for your great realization, it's an interesting topic @Pinocchio Man, you are so nuts. If I read your lines it's like pure gold is dippin' in my face. Thanks for your wisdom, you made my evening!

I had something similar going on while meditating the other day late at night listening to an Alan Watts lecture. He really took the concept of our consciousness, all the sense perceptions and thoughts apart. While I was merging with what he said - I didn't really listen but took it unconsciously in and became his words - I suddenly experienced first-person that everything I see and sense in general is me. As you delve in the enlightenment ideas this is something fundamentally and makes of course a lot of sense if you think deeply about it. About nothingness and all that. However, it always is just an intellectual thought and nothing more. So, in this moment it felt like I had "ownership" of what I see and as if my focus stopped being narrowed in something before me but being "narrowed" on everything that I can see - which is kind of a paradox but made sense in that moment. It wasn't a hallucination - I encounter them a lot in deep meditative states - it was a sudden realization. As soon as this happened I wanted to grab it and it went away. That was really strange. It's always the same with me. As soon as some of these states manifest I have the automatic reaction to grab it and then it leaves. However, this is progress, dude. You start to get glimpses of something bigger than yourself. Cheers to you

I think there is absolutely no problem to play with any forms that can occur, to take any role that I can think of and play it out or to fulfill any deep desire programmed into myself - when that day comes where I can see that all of this has no value at all and it is at its root just play. In beforehand, I'll always have to be conscious about the fact that I tend to give these games value. And when I give them value I give birth to the possibility that I feel shitty when I can't have them no more. And that's why the monk listening into the mountains and just sitting is wiser than me - because he is actually able to realize what I just said.

Great question, dude. Love your post already. And the answer to your question is: Fuck yeah! I play the drums myself since I'm 6 years old and go swimming every week to work out, so I can somehow relate to your examples. What you start to see after meditating a while or being on a spiritual journey is that the idea of meditating - completely being with the flow of reality - can be applied in most - if not all - disciplines of life. And especially in sports and music is it very natural - as you pointed out - to apply the phenomenon of meditation. What happens if you play the drums - and I love that - is that you completely merge with the rhythm and every sound that appears in the present moment. You need to be completely there to handle your hand-foot interplay. As you get better playing an instrument you'll see that at some point this starts to happen for itself. That actually seems to happen with the most things that you master over time (driving the car, going, talking etc. ...). What happens here is that your "self" is taken out of the equation of handling that task with conscious thought. Now - and you can apply the same line of argumentation I just gave to swimming or to most sports in general - does this help you with your enlightenment work or is it possible to use that as meditation? Yes and no. It can if you want to. Start to let your intuition do it's thing and just observe what is happening. Where are these sounds - when you play the drums - coming form? Where is that rhythm you feel coming from? Where is it going to? What state seems to manifest in that situation. Where does it come from? Same with swimming. If you start you feel into that you can make a lot of very normal things a meditation and use it for your spiritual progress or to see reality at its work. Cheers to you for that great topic

I kind of agree and disagree with you on this one. I think you are greatly benefited if you start your enlightenment journey after you have managed to get your basic needs in place. Meaning, a job, maybe a girlfriend / wife if you want, a solid self-confidence. All this probably helps to start the journey and not to fall of it (because you have no money anymore to feed yourself or shit like that.) However, one also has to see that there is no special point to reach in self-actualization. it always goes on and is very depended on your current situation and what pops up in your life and how you (want to) handle it. You could also start an enlightenment journey if you are a complete loser, dead sick or any situation you can think of. Might be harder though. I firmly disagree with you about your point that it's pathetic to take enlightenment out of mastering your normal life. Because it's pathetic to take your life serious at all. That's the whole point of enlightenment, to see that. Everything you do in your normal life is a game in which you play a role. You are actually so identified with your roles that you come here and argue for the game because it seems so real to you. Don't get me wrong on this one, there are games that are not serious but maybe sincere. And because of this I like to "actualize my day to day life" and have fun with this, while being on the journey and while seeing that this is all play (or trying to see that - it's not easy). So everybody who goes on such a journey and becomes a monk will probably be more right in saying that what I do - having a "normal" life and trying to seek pleasure out of it - is more pathetic than sitting all day long and meditating to get to the same goal. Keep that in mind, and see for which side you really argue here. It's not that easy to see that and somebody who speaks for his self-identification will probably have problems understanding my point. Any ways, thanks for the conversation

Actually, it's not that black and white. I had a temporary spiritual experience last year and one of the most interesting things that appeared were that it actually seemed that I am more arrogant than usual. I had a buddy around and laughed him out and told him that I can actually not detect any difference between him and the wall next to him. Now, how can this be? Were I fooled? No, what seems to be the case is that you become very grounded when you dis-identify from your ego. You get completely grounded in what is and probably don't become the product of the other people's talk. You just do your thing, without being frantic and neurotic about it. It's the most beautiful place I can think of and there is nothing in this world I know that could be compared to this. Btw, you = ego. You can't have to much ego. My ego is just talking to you. An enlightened person still has an ego, but just chooses not be identified with it if he wants to.

TM - as I understand it and I have done just a little youtube / wikipedia / google research back in the days - is mostly a mantra meditation with a simple sound that doesn't mean anything in particular. Yes, there are these expensive courses and stuff and this is probably just a way to make good money off it BUT: The technique - for stilling your mind - is in my personal experience next to the standard Zen - count your breath from 1 to 10 - technique one of the most effective ones in stilling your mind. Every time I tried it I got very fast into a state of samadhi - most of the time in 10-15 minutes and could stay in that state for a while. However, I kind of doubt whether it will suit spiritual pursuits. In my experience there are better techniques for that endeavor. But for stilling the monkey in your head, a mantra may still be the best idea because you really kill the possibility of your mind talking random bullshit.