Joshe

I’m not arguing against this, and it’s probably true that NTs can more accurately discern emotional reality from very minimal signal. But I thought the test page was talking about TOM and saying it’s low in autistics, which may be true for the majority of autistics but I think there’s a significant minority of level 1 autistics this does not apply to. Give me more than just the eyes and I can read emotions better than NTs. This doesn’t negate the test or the data but it does seem to have implications for their TOM conclusions.

lol, damn bro, you crack me up. Hojo gives no fucks.

It's a specific type of spirituality. There seems to be more than one type/approach, which is threatening to many types because their type is supposed to be the only one, kind of like Christianity, lol.

The autistic person who spent decades modeling human behavior will be miles ahead NTs in Theory of Mind. The whole premise of the test seems to be that ND people have low TOM and can't read people as well and NT people can, which is simply not true.

Yeah, I was jk. That test can't tell if someone is ND.

I agree. I don't think it's a good test.

I scored below average: 22 It seems the premise is autistic people have low Theory of Mind, but this isn't true in my experience. I have very high TOM. The test seems to measure shallow, fluent social processing, which I think is very different from TOM. Interesting idea though. Another critique is that NT people probably designed the whole test. It's basically asking "do you label this the same way NT people would label it".

You autistic af bro. 😂

I just went to Claude AI and said: "I've been told I'm neurodivergent. I don't feel any negativity about the topic and it doesn't bother me if I am, but I'd like to know if I am or not, so can you help me figure it out? What are some questions you can ask me to help figure it out? " After 3 rounds of questions and follow up questions, it said: It's kind of like a personality test in that some questions will be difficult to answer, because it's asking why or what makes you behave the way that you do, and the truthful answer isn't always our first instinct. Not a foolproof way to find out but it could be useful.

Yes, I've seen those often. Even stranger is sometimes I'd experience something like a a flashlight is being shined around the edges of the field. Do you ever see "floaters" in your visual field with your eyes opened? They're these little clear bubbles that float around and every time you try to focus on them, they move, so you can never focus on them at the center. I've wondered if this is the cause of the floaters when the eyes are closed.

You’re right.

It’s not about a label. It’s not to say “I’m ND”. That would be childish. “ND” is a blanket term pointing to a shit ton of stuff. That stuff is personal attributes that we are in negative relation to but unconscious of. Nearly all autistic people who are not aware that they are autistic have deep shadows behind their unconscious autism. They don’t even know the shadows are there and they likely never will without an explanatory framework to shine the light onto them. The point of ND, for me, was to shine a light on those shadows. It has nothing to do with labels, unless you’re an egotist. Just to say “I’m autistic” feels a little weird to me. But that’s just a label placeholder for my specific attributes which happen to be explained well by neurodivergence.

Very professional. You seeking a mod role? Lol. Cheers buddy

This is exactly the point of all this ND talk. It’s about liberation. Deep acceptance and forgiveness. Breaking the chains that you don’t even know bind you.

They change all the time. For example, ND was just added about 3 months ago and it had significant impact on several of my existing models, which I’m still integrating. And ND isn’t so much about “people” as it is about “myself”. To use the knowledge to label other people is not the point and is a wrong use of it. The point is to see yourself more clearly. To answer questions you've never been able to answer and have just swept under the rug. The proper use of it is to see what it offers, integrate the truth, and then drop it. Once the truth is integrated, you don’t need the model much anymore. And the integration does not necessitate egoic labels of hierarchy or specialness. It involves a strong felt sense of self-acceptance and self-love, as well as forgiveness for yourself and the world. Once you experience that integration, the work is done and you need not go about life with the idea that you’re ND - you are just what you are, but with more self-acceptance and self-love. This is a healthy thing - good for the spirit, not bad for it. I’m guessing your version of spirituality values healing, self-acceptance, and self-love. If so, what seems to be the problem with this? I think all the naysayers are projecting how they themselves relate to such labels - afraid that if they try them on, they won’t be able to take them off. Idk. That, or it somehow threatens their preferred spiritual methods - because what is being discussed is a legitimate spiritual technology when you get down to it. The resistance is interesting. I would have thought this community would be more open-minded.

lol

It seems you think acceptance of the idea would hamper your development. But we're saying it would increase it. The healthy way is not to use it as a crutch or to just throw your hands up and say "fuck it, this is just the way I am - no development for me", but rather to not fight yourself and to design life around the REAL constraints you have. By accepting it, you can actually be more true to yourself and go after things you truly enjoy. For example, for some, they may feel liberated from all the social pressure and accept that they will never be what society wants them to be, and they might realize they don't REALLY value that anyway, so they can accept forgoing some bullshit society wants them to deal with, and instead focus on what they ACTUALLY enjoy. You can't imagine the liberation of such deep self-acceptance until you drop the load of bricks you've been carrying. Most here are carrying a load of bricks around and don't even know it. Dropping them let's you stop wasting energy fighting the wrong battles. It makes merging with your true, authentic self easy, and it lets you do it without apology - all you have to do is accept it. This is deep shit bro. If you experienced what I did, it was absolutely revelatory and healing, as in extremely healthy and good for me. So, if most here are autistic, there's a good chance they too can partake in the healing. Not sure why you'd be against that.

I tried to organize some of my notes from the rabbit hole about 3 months back. Level 1 Autism requires some support, level 2 requires substantial support, and level 3 requires very substantial support. This list mostly describes level 1 and severity can vary and not all traits are universal. Diagnosis & Demographics Men are diagnosed 3-4x higher than females Females mask more effectively than males Many autistic people get diagnosed with ADHD first Autism runs in families and is often multi-generational Not uncommon to have multiple siblings, cousins, aunts, and uncles all autistic Often undiagnosed across generations Ever wondered what was wrong with your family? lol Social Patterns General Tendencies Comfortable with isolation Preferring not to talk unless necessary One or two people as entire social world Hyper-focused once latched onto something Autistic-to-Autistic Connection Autistic people often recognize and gravitate toward each other Even without knowing you're both autistic, there's often an unspoken "getting it" Understanding of social exhaustion Direct communication styles match Less exhausting social interaction Don't have to mask as much—less judgment about "weird" behaviors or interests Similar conversational patterns (info-dumping, special interests) Neurotypical relationships often require constant translation and masking Autistic people do tend to partner with other autistic people at higher rates than chance Special Interests Autistic people often have a "special interest" they are highly competent in Can present as obsessive pattern recognition and mastery Deep, intense focus on specific topics Can talk extensively about interest More intense than typical "hobbies" Self-teaching through obsessive focus "Geeking on" specific topics Sensory Processing The Underlying Mechanism The autistic nervous system processes sensory input differently—often more intensely Bright lights, background noise, textures, smells all require active filtering This happens constantly and unconsciously drains energy Sensory Overload Examples Discomfort with unexpected physical contact Clothing tags, seams, certain fabrics unbearable Can't stand certain textures against skin Light touch more irritating than firm pressure Loud commercials unbearable Background noise draining Bright lights uncomfortable Need for dim, quiet environments Bothered by chewing/breathing sounds from others Can't filter out background conversations—hears everything equally Sudden sounds (doors slamming, dogs barking) physically jarring Self-Soothing & Stimming Listening to the same song on repeat (sometimes for hours/days) Repeating words, phrases, or sounds (echolalia) Rewatching the same movies/shows repeatedly Cracking knuckles or joints Running mental loops (replaying conversations, scenarios) Organizing/categorizing as a calming activity Info-dumping (talking about special interest is regulating) Often self-medicates to soothe nervous system Hand rubbing Knee bouncingFoot shaking Fidgeting Pacing Humming Finger wiggling Rocking Executive Function & Task Initiation Why "Simple" Tasks Are Hard Requires constant mental energy to self-initiate tasks Can do complex things BUT struggle with "simple" things Starting a task actually involves multiple processes: Recognize it needs to be done Shift attention from current focus Plan the sequence of steps Overcome inertia to begin Monitor progress and stay on track Weaker Automaticity Weaker habit formation: The brain doesn't create automatic "if-then" connections as easily ("if it's 8am, then make coffee") Every time feels like the first time: Tasks don't become automatic through repetition as readily Manual override required: What happens automatically for others requires conscious, deliberate thought each time Time Perception Difficulty perceiving the passage of time accurately "Just five more minutes" turns into an hour May hyperfocus on something and completely lose track of time Routine & Flexibility Self-imposed schedules require constant self-monitoring and discipline. (Level 1 autistics typically have enough executive function and self-awareness to create schedules and know they need structure, but not enough automaticity for those schedules to run themselves.) What was manageable yesterday might be overwhelming today If one thing goes off schedule, the whole day can feel derailed Difficulty improvising or adjusting when unexpected things happen Rigid thinking can make it hard to restart a routine once it's disrupted Complete shutdown when facing unfamiliar situations Context Switching & Transitions Moving from one activity to another requires "resetting" the brain Autistic brains often excel at deep focus but struggle with transitions Each task switch depletes mental resources more rapidly High cost to transition between activities Difficulty shifting attention Need time between different tasks Energy & Burnout Unpredictable Energy Fluctuating daily capacity Good days vs. bad days with no clear pattern The Burnout Cycle Intense focus → depletion → shutdown Need significant recovery time Can't "just push through" Physical/emotional collapse from prolonged stress Shutdown Responses Going silent, non-responsive Complete inability to engage Not just tired—system offline Need to withdraw completely Project Abandonment Pattern Intense 3-5 day focus, then can't return Many unfinished projects Difficulty restarting after breaks Masking & Compensating Monitoring their own behavior to appear "normal" Suppressing stims (self-soothing repetitive behaviors like bouncing the knee) Scripting and rehearsing conversations Managing facial expressions and tone of voice manually Cognitive Styles Concrete vs. abstract thinking: High-IQ autistic: strong abstract reasoning Average/below-average IQ autistic: concrete, literal Can be either—but thought process is detail-oriented Metacognition varies widely between autistic individuals Work & Achievement Career Patterns Staying in same role for decades Solo work preference Struggle with workplace social demands Underemployment despite intelligence Frequent job changes OR extreme job stability The "Squandered Potential" Narrative High intelligence + poor achievement "Gifted kid" who "didn't live up to potential" Teachers noticing mismatch between ability and output

It's not necessarily a disorder. I'm autistic but do not think I have a disorder. And I would rather be my flavor of autistic than NT. There's a degree of giftedness that often accompanies ND. It can be debilitating for some but for many, it gives them an edge, and they wouldn't have it any other way. There are pros and cons.

Your framework already has all the answers and classifies certain distinctions as illusion/bs, and I can't convince you otherwise. I understand your framework, I just don't agree with it. It blots out what I think are good distinctions, and I think you're wanting dissolve those distinctions to maintain framework coherence. The distinctions we're pointing to are detrimental to your framework, so your impulse is to reject them. It's too complicated, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Me: What he pointed out is trivial to me. You: Gloss over the potentially devastating point about seeing distinctions as useless abstractions. You're allergic to distinctions that you think involve "identity". But notice how you're fine with other distinctions. I can hold distinctions about people separate from identity, so it's not a problem for me, but this rubs you the wrong way. See our conversation from several months ago about the attractiveness scale from 1-10. Whether you like it or not, these distinctions exist. It is possible to hold them without ego-interference. Trying to ignore the distinction that one thing is more beautiful than another thing is to deny reality. It is possible to notice/accept the distinction without an unhealthy response to it.

Your wiring is largely the reason you are the way you are. It's not all just nurture. Nature sets the stage. Surely, you've known since childhood you were different. Awakening doesn't override your nature. Your very nature strongly influences if you'd even seek awakening. There's a reason why most spiritual masters are said to be INFJ. They were born different.

This is true - immature people are using it as a crutch and for egoic purposes, and this is largely why I was turned off by the topic, but this doesn't negate the reality of it.

I see what converges, not what I want to converge. I don't even "want" anything specific to converge - I just want to see what actually converges. And even after I see the convergence, I'm still skeptical and wonder if I put things together wrong, so I pressure test further. I'm not building models of reality sloppily. Of course it's all abstraction, but if you use "it's all abstraction" to make distinctions irrelevant, this can become its own pathology.