Joshe

You’re assuming to know how I distinguish my list items, but I said absolutely nothing to give you reason to believe I group criminals and the mentally unwell in the same bucket. I was identifying multiple issues and how they might be mitigated or solved. Also, I don’t box myself in with labels such as “liberal”. lol

You high tonight?

These problems could largely be solved with proper development and education. The education system has to be completely refactored. Those prone to criminality, laziness, mental disorders, addiction, etc., should be accounted for and preemptively dealt with via the education system. At least, if we’re to look to society to solve these problems. It would take time to reap the harvest but I can’t think of a better way. Authoritarianism will backfire tremendously, same as it does in the nuclear family.

Just another day. Not enough people care.

Also, resource-intensive. You've got about 16 hours per day. You might work 8, which leaves 8 left. Factor in eating, commute, daily duties, errands, etc, and you're down to 5 or 6, if you're lucky. Now, factor in a minimum of 3 hours per day for the relationship. You now have 2-3 hours left. Have kids? Kiss all your free time goodbye. This does not seem appealing to me at all. Observing married people, many of them wish they could get out, for obvious reasons. Your life isn't really yours anymore once you commit to this lifestyle.

Nice, yes, very interesting stuff! Haha, how did you arrive there?

Agree. They show us our neediness, fragility, turbulence, jealousy, etc. Without women, we would never even know it 😆. Everything is for everything else. I suppose “I” didn’t really change anything. It was more of an adaptation fueled by suffering and high metacognition. I could trace back my suffering to my neediness and it was obvious I needed to remove the neediness to not suffer. The way it seems to work is: Suffering happens -> I contemplate it. If I find that the suffering is caused by something petty, like jealousy, I try my best to penetrate the absurdity of it to see just how absurd I'm being. Every time the feeling arises, I go back to my distillation of the absurdity, and if I'm still bothered, I contemplate some more. Eventually, when the feeling of jealousy arises, since I contemplated it so deeply and made judgements about what jealousy is, I somehow reject it, but I don’t really know how I accomplish that. Actually, I just conversed with ChatGPT and it explained it quite well. The elusive mechanism seems to be "reappraisal". The mechanism works like this: recognition → reappraisal → disengagement Key insight is: Because you’ve already decided in advance what the meaning of that emotion is, the “battle” is over before it starts. This is like having mental antibodies: the recognition itself neutralizes the thing, so it never blooms into the full emotional state that would need active suppression. "You’ve trained an automatic recognition + dismissal sequence for emotions you’ve pre-judged as counterproductive. Because of deep contemplation beforehand, the recognition step instantly triggers a reframing that drains the emotion’s fuel." Not sure if that answers your question.

Mirror effect.

Seems attention hijacking would top the list. Back in the day, there was more space and time to think about things and their consequences, and to share those thoughts and ideas with others.

High failure rate. Easy to blunder.

Here’s one for you : what is the point of a concept?

Lol. I’m not sure I follow. Air is good too!

@Hojo Becoming emotionally stable and strong is something you do as a healthy, adaptive response to reality. It shouldn’t be done for women. Women are just inadvertently good at revealing a man’s emotional instability. When I saw it in myself, I wanted to change for myself, not for women, because I suffered so much that I didn’t want anything or anyone to have that much influence over my state, so I had to figure out what I was doing wrong and change, for myself. If a man tries to become a rock for women, I don’t think it would work well because that whole pursuit is driven by needing something outside one’s self, but the whole point is to need less from outside and develop an internal locus of control.

@ExploringReality What about my definition is lacking? "A dynamic, nested possibility space, shaped by constraints and defined by perspective."

lol. Yes, hell on earth.

This is true. I hate that they feel that way though. They think I'm flexing or some shit but really, I'm just trying to engage in ideas and hope they can meet me there or be open to learning, but when they can't, they project that I get ego juice from it, because to them, they feel inferior, but to me, they are not inferior just because they don't know something.

Haha, yeah, one day I was just putting a vibrator on different spots of my face and found it. Pretty amazing. lol.

Yeah, I love the tension that gets released in a deep cry. Something interesting I discovered recently: I can trigger a similar effect by stimulating my trigeminal nerve with a vibrator to make myself sneeze. After sneezing like 20-30 times, it feels like I just cried a lot.

That's true, usually. And I can empathize with those crying over what I interpret as trivial, but at same time, there must be a call for strength, because I want my fellows to be strong, so they don't suffer. If a man cries because he's afraid of the dark, I'm calling that trivial and he should have transcended it by now. This is not to belittle him, but to acknowledge the reality that he has yet to learn how to deal with his emotions, with the point being for him to deal with his emotions, rather than be told it's perfectly fine to allow them to persist simply because they are genuinely there. The fact that they are there is evidence they should be dealt with - not evidence that they should be made a habit out of indulging. Many seem to actually want to snuggle up to fragility as a social strategy. I'd bet many of the men in those "crying clubs" fit that bill. And IMO, it's likely not healthy, although I am biased here. Also, I agree with your point that crying is often a sign of strength rather than weakness.

@theleelajoker Thanks! Yes, I didn't mean to imply that's the truth of the matter, just a frame. I think we can agree that it's better for men to accept reality than be bitter towards it. When men interpret women as being cold to their emotions, they could sulk into that and become bitter towards women in general (which is the typical response I've seen IME), or they can find another, healthier frame that doesn't include victimhood. The frames that appeal to me may not be appealing or compatible for you. This frame was just my strategy, which I found helpful. Whatever frame or strategy chosen, it should not suppress, reject, or deny the core reality. A healthy strategy would acknowledge the truth and orient one towards positivity. So as long as your strategy can check those boxes, it's much healthier than the typical response. Also, I don't have anything against crying in general. I actually like crying, in private lol. It's cathartic. A while back, I cried for like 30 minutes listening to the song "White Flag" by Dido. No idea even why, as I didn't relate to anything in the song. It was just me projecting several layers of meaning onto the singer's reality and found it emotionally rich and beautiful. The truth of the matter is when men cry over trivial things in front of women, the women see it as weakness...because it often is. You need some control over your emotional state. I don't mean suppression. I mean actually not being bothered by trivial things. Expressing emotions is fine. But if you need to express emotions triggered by petty things, that's the weakness, not crying. Crying is just the expression that reveals the weakness. Also, @Lyubov mentioned the reality that many people use crying as a form of manipulation, which is certainly true. I've seen men do this as well.

That's true. I'm not good with words and don't have time to make everything precise. "Predispose" would have been better. Because he's lead Fi, it's hard for him to not be overly vulnerable in relationships. Of course that isn't the only factor, but I count it as a big one, for him.

Women are the main facilitators of the attainment of this strength. But most guys respond with lifelong cynicism towards women rather than adapting. To be honest, I too am quite repulsed by men (and women) crying over nothing or crying often. If he's crying from beauty or love or something like that, that's fine, cry as much as you like, but crying about things not going your way in life or relationships warrants the "ick" response.

Yeah, that's apt. Yeah, personality type is huge. I had an INFP friend who was like a 9 on the looks scale and would easily attract women but he couldn't keep them around to save his life due to emotional neediness. I knew that was the reason they would all jump ship but I had a hard time telling him what he had to do to change because how do you tell someone to not be emotionally weak or habitually emotionally vulnerable when it's baked into their personality? I rarely feel the need to express emotions outwardly to other people. Like if a tragedy happens, I need to be left alone to process and grieve. There's nothing anyone can do or say to make me feel better. I don't want hugs. I get little to no catharsis from sharing my emotions with others. The only time I need to share is when there's a relationship problem to solve. But I'm not very emotional in general. I'm most emotional in dealing with loss of a loved one or something like that. I tend to be the one struggling the most at family member funerals. That's about the only situation I can't contain it and it becomes like a bursting dam. But I never felt any frustration regarding not being able to emote. I can emote quite well, I just don't see much point in doing it outwardly unless for strategic reasons. I did however witness girls getting the "ick" feeling when I was less mature in relationships. I remember one time crying my heart out to a girl that just left me and I could see it on her face. This fed my narrative that women were cold, which led to a maladaptive response, which I grew out of in late 20s. I now see the "ick" response as something like an evolutionary mechanism designed to make men stronger. I see it as an adaptive challenge, which I think is a frame men would do well to adopt, as opposed to the frame of a victim, blaming women for this or that.

Yes. What I'm saying is though, the natural gifts of the INTP easily get co-opted by the ego, and since their gifts are rejected by the mainstream, it's easy for the INTP to reject them back, and the INTP will tell themselves they're rejecting them because they are fools who do not value truth, and they will make it a huge project to identify all the ways the mainstream errs, feeding not only their drive to explore and understand systems, but also their ego's need to feel superior or not to feel inferior. I think this is a common, adaptive survival strategy of the INTP ego.

Yes, this INTP bias is important to understand. INTPs have brains that make them want to explore systems and catalog knowledge. Therefor, it comes very easily to them to adopt an identity of truth seeker. “I care about truth and almost no one else does”. This allows them to assume a superior position in a social environment that deems them weird. Mainstream calls them weird, so of course there’s a natural searching for superiority, which they easily find in their most innate tendencies. Hence the identity adoption of “iconoclastic truth seeker”. This is an actual phenomenon that all cynical/detached/neutral INTP “truth seekers” need to analyze.