Joshe

You have called me stage green previously (which was funny as hell because I've never been anything like green). But if I can predict humans better than you, what makes you at stage yellow, or above, better than me at whatever stage I'm at it? What separates us? If I have deeper knowledge of human psychology and human systems than you do, how am I in some way lower on your spiral?

Bullshit. I was born with it. And the implication is that I was "born into yellow". This has massive problems for the model. I wasn't "born into yellow". I was born with a "predisposition". It doesn't make me special. I dont't get to claim some higher level development because of it.

Sorry if I was disrespectful.

thanks bro. I'll come back when I'm clear

No, I said I'd explain it all in the future but it's complicated and would take some work.

Of couse I'm in stage green! That's been the problem my entire life! I just couldn't understand hierarchies! No matter what I did or how much I contemplated, I just couldn't understand hierarchies for the life of me! lol. Quick question for you: Which stage is hierarchy most conscious? Is that "orange"? It's actually funny to even think about if you wanted to compare your understanding of humans to mine systematically, that your understanding would make mine look inferior. I had higher hopes for you kid.

That's because you're myopic but think you see the world through a telescope and you're cool because of it.

No. I'm saying that "yellow" requires something most people don't have. And there are massive implications to that. You're a sharp dude. You can get to the bottom of it if you want. I'm not sure how to articulate this to you at the moment. I've been drinking. But I sense you're reluctant to see the truth of what I'm saying. It has nothing to do with the mystical aspects of reality. It's totally derivable from logic alone, if you have the courage to go there. And I know you do! You just have to do it! lol You're one of the few on here that has that innate courage. So I'm hoping you go there and dismantle what you spent years building. Or at least see the validity in what I've said.

You're literally describing me here. By "systematizing predisposition", I meant having the raw materials that would lead to the capacity to hold several parts in mind at once and work your way to figuring out how they relate to each other, accurately. It doesn't matter if you primarily use intuition first or analysis first. I go to "predisposition" first because capacity is downstream of it. The capacity will never develop without the predisposition or very strong environmental pressure. But it will almost always develop naturally on its own with a strong predisposition, which is what you see here in this community and within yourself. It makes sense to me because I understand psychological distribution. The ability to hold multiple parts in relation varies between people early, and it isn't produced by development. It's not something you arrive at by working through blue and orange and green. Some people have it at age 8 and some will never have it. So if yellow has it that the ability to do this is a hard prerequisite to be considered yellow (and it does), then access to yellow is gated by predisposition. So it's trying to sort people by a trait, while acting like it's a personal advancement. And if you think about what "yellow" is, it's not just about systematizing anything. It's about understanding minds as systems. Something like 15-20% of people have a systematizing predisposition, according to the literature. Of these 15-20%, the majority will point their systematizing at engineering, math, code, markets, ecosystems, etc. Only a small percentage will point it at minds/psychology. And conveniently, those are the "tier 2" people. Does that make sense?

I've watched all the videos and have explored on my own. Granted, I never trusted or adopted the model because I can't just adopt models until they map, but I have tried to let it map and it never did. If it was going to map onto reality, it would have by now. So I kept asking, "How come it's not mapping? These intelligent people are saying it maps!" And I eventually figured out it actually does map for tier 1, and not for tier 2. That's part of why it was difficult to see the issues with it. And the other large part of seeing the issues was that it has built-in mechanisms to prevent you from seeing it. Such as "if you think yellow is bullshit, it's only because you can't see it, because you're not there". So, I got to the bottom of that whole thing, and you can too. The very fact that you can't reach "yellow" without the systematizing predisposition should be enough for you to dismantle it on your own. If SD has been a big thing for you for a long time, there will be reluctance to see the flaws. Which is why it's important to be very careful and slow to adopt models in the first place. Can you have "yellow" without a systematizing predisposition? The answer is no. What are the implications of that? If you don't want to do the work yourself, simply plug this inquiry into your favorite AI to be spoon-fed gold, lol. And then ask yourself, "how come the people who say SD is one of the best models for understanding humans never thought of this?" And then ask yourself "what are the implications of that?" 😂 Yes, very much so. TBH, my cognition seems to be basically designed for mystical experiences. And I did psychedelics regularly, like every weekend for two years until I exhausted it. And I'm very much open to new perspectives, but also very much an independent thinker. I have to verify everything and SD just never mapped, even after having spent years on the table. I disagree with the point about how psychedelics make SD more real. I can totally see all of tier 1, easily. But tier 2 was always a black box, and that is what raised my suspicion and inquiry into why it was a black box.

Right. But I was pointing at something. You have to realize the systematizing predisposition is necessary for what you like to think of as "tier 2". If you follow the implications down, you will see just how flawed SD is for anything above green. The thing Leo never did was tear SD apart. You can rip it to fucking shreds if you want to. The descriptions of tier 1 are useful and map to real-world stuff. But the model is embarrassingly naive and unconscious of it's claims about "Tier 2". I plan to share more when I get the time and energy. It's not going to be easy to explain how flawed it is. The story of why it's flawed in the way that it is is the most interesting thing to me. Not sure I'll get into that though. It's complicated.

Tier 2. lol. You mean someone with the predisposition to systematize? I can get into systematizing women if they're engaging with systems I care about, like psychology. But it would be hard to be attracted to a girl systematizing the global economy, unless it was balanced well with the feminine. And probably even then it wouldn't work because I don't even like hanging around dudes systematizing dry shit. I could totally get into a cute therapist or psychiatrist and enjoy discussing those topics with her. Just like systematizing men are still humans underneath, so are women. It's just a matter of can you put up with their content.

I think that’s normal if you’re just starting out getting girlfriends, but ideally those first few breakups would teach you how not to cling. If a girl wants to leave you, you just let her. If she doesn’t want to be with you, then you shouldn’t want to be with her. No bargaining should ever come to your mind. For me, I literally cannot want a relationship with someone who doesn’t want one with me. There would be zero trying to get her back. In fact, I accommodate and usher her out, and I’m not sitting in fear of what I’m going to do to get another girl, and I’m not even thinking about another girl because I have to process the breakup and move on with life. Your bargaining power in the relationship is that you will not bargain. She should always know your stance is that if she wants to leave, there’s the door.

So are the majority of men. That’s a bothsidesism, but just wanted to toss it out for perspective. And of course, almost no one considers themself a sheep. Also, if the majority of women are sheep yet you’re still chasing them, there’s probably some internal conflict there. Potentially worth looking into depending on how dominant it is in your worldview.

Also, you'd form strategies naturally because you'd practice socializing and you'd get feedback about what worked and what didn't, and the calibration would happen naturally. You basically learn to be warm/likeable/charismatic via social feedback and that feedback changes you without you really having to practice anything. I think the best thing guys could do is just work on their social skills without focusing on women at all, until they can carry on fun/interesting conversations with anyone next to them, when the stakes are low. And after competence there, it transfers over to women much more smoothly without having to bombard your nervous system with the sting of 20 rejections and 20 instances of approach anxiety. It's like it gives you and trains in a frame of reference for how to be at ease socially, and that eventually makes interacting with women much easier. Maybe it's training the nervous system that humans are safe, and eventually that women are safe. And it's interesting because if you do that but then later adopt the predator-prey mindset again, all of a sudden, the anxiety comes flooding back in because you're afraid you're going to be found out. But if you're not doing anything where you have to fear being found out, there's nothing to worry about. I dabbled in pickup in my early 20s but was just so put off by it because of how it made me feel. I remember being at ease socially and having a good time, then an attractive girl would appear and I'd go into the pickup mindset and I remember just being all fucked up from that, so I stopped, which led to me realizing it was never even necessary. Imagine if guys would go out every Friday and Saturday and just work on social skills with the assignment to not think about wanting a girl or sex or anything like that, and their goal was to just have as many good interactions as possible and to connect with anyone. Seems like a good idea.

Maybe it's more that authenticity is a prerequisite for competence in this domain. To dispense with it is a shortcut that you'll pay for later. The Mexican proverb "the lazy man works twice as hard" comes to mind. But it's not just authenticity. It's integrity and mutual respect for women. I've not been able to figure out how to articulate my intuitions on this topic but I'll try. It has to do with treating women like humans, not marks to manage or trick with cheap tricks and mind games. Yes, my approach would be slower, because you would be at the mercy of reality for a while and women don't just drop their pants for you, but you would maintain your integrity and be a healthier human in the long run. If you consider how much effort some guys are putting into game/pickup, it's like 100x the effort that would be required if you just did things naturally, and this way, you don't have to corrupt yourself. So, it's far less work, far healthier in terms of being regulated and learning to not be desperate/needy (because over time, you stop fighting reality), and in the end, you'll be able to find women without running game on them. Enduring that initial period is the work, not 1000 approaches. Like Emerald mentioned, yeah, the 1000 approaches will work better initially, but the big cost is you never develop in a healthy manner because you've spent years treating women like marks instead of humans. That's the jist, I think. Also, you have to consider the cost of adopting the pickup paradigm for many years. It will stunt your growth, and potentially prevent you from ever becoming the man you'd like to be, because you took the shortcut and dispensed with your integrity and treated women like dumb marks that you run tricks on. This comes at a very high cost, and the bill comes due. You can get girls without it, you just have to be patient and learn how while maintaining your integrity and being a decent person. A few have mentioned "this is just a stage people go through / it's a normal/necessary part of finding your way". To me, this seems so obvious of what learning is that it doesn't need to be mentioned. Which is why I chuckled "lol" earlier after I mentioned that that's how learning works. Because it's as if a few people think this is lost on those of us shining a light on a different way. What moves people up from the stage below? Most often, stumbling or coming across a new way and exploring it, seeing the validity in it, contemplating it, and trying it on and shedding the inferior ways of the thinking/being from the previous stage. And that's the point of a self-development forum - for members to share ideas regarding learning/development. So I'm just confused by "it's a necessary part of development", because of course is it. And of course, there is always another stage, which is what we're pointing at. Sorry if I'm reopening the Ni-Ni loop, lol. You don't have to respond if you think it's going to spiral.

You don't have to trick them, lol.

lol, true. It's so funny when you lay it out like that. I've seen this one used on you and Natasha and am just like 🤦‍♂️ Like, what kind of logic even is that? As if you don't have access to what it's like to be an actual woman just because your cognition is different. Just flip the scenario: a cognitively sophisticated man goes to a woman's dating forum and tells them they're theorizing too much or whatever, and the women say "but you're not like most men". It's like, "Yeah, ok, but I'm still a fucking man and I've been around men my whole life. I have direct, high quality access and the ability to understand the nature of a man, because I am one." And the women tell you you don't know wtf you're talking about and dismiss you because you're "different". The logic is absurd, unless I'm missing something.

Yeah, I don't rely on Ni with work. Too risky. Except it did pop into it the other day when a client was trying to bullshit me that my latest deliverable had a problem I had already solved and verified wasn't a problem anymore. And because they misinterpreted something, they kept insisting there was a problem and I told them to reverify and they told me they did and the problem was still there, so I asked for a screenshot to confirm and they refused. I struggle to keep my Ni out of situations like that. It's like "I KNOW you're full of shit", lol. I have been wrong in one of those situations before, so I'm careful not to imply I think they're full of it. But yeah, that's a lesson I had to learn: Ni doesn't belong in my work. Some day, I hope to move into a line of work that requires it. Past my bedtime. I enjoyed it as well, and my Te did update my model of you in a more positive light tonight, so that's good!

Yes, that's how I've always experienced Ni too. As a kid, I was really odd because I was in constant observer mode, like just trying to soak up data to understand everything that was going on around me. I remember going to school and being a loner and didn't even care and wasn't bothered by it in the slightest because observer mode was too dominant. And the key thing about that mode was that it wasn't trying to close because it wasn't even close to being able to make sense of the world. It was like that until about mid 20s. Mid 20s, all the data started to crystallize and I realized over and over where the intuitions from all the observations started to be right, and where they were wrong. And when they were wrong, I had to know why, like a compulsion. So basically, whatever this cognitive architecture I have is, it was just training the shit out intuition and it had built-in correction mechanisms that were fine-tuning it. Ni proposes, Te disposes. Eventually, my intuitions became so mystical to me that it was like "how tf do I know this?" And for me, Te is really strong, so I would put in the work to understand how I knew - untangling the Ni. After years of untangling the Ni, things got even more mystical because the system just kept proving things that I myself wasn't actually working to produce, or at least, it didn't seem like it other than the Te. Once I gained competence in unpacking Ni, that's when I started closing more. The craziest thing is when you're highly metacognitive AND have Ni AND can competently unpack Ni. That's a strange default mode to live in. And the thing is, I'm aware where there are holes. I can sense it, but that doesn't stop me from trying to fill them in. And part of the process of filling them in is to actually make guesses and be wrong. And when I'm wrong, it registers like a serious violation to my system, which ups the stakes. And I'm guessing being wrong registers like a serious violation to you too, which is why you're so vigilant about avoiding it? I've intuited that before, which is why I wrote you, basically a letter once lol, explaining why it's ok to be wrong and the utility of it, and that you should open yourself up to it more. I've considered that maybe you aren't as Te heavy, thus not as likely to unpack your Ni...maybe? I believe we spoke before about how Te is likely different/weaker for a woman. Also, if you knew me in real life, you would see how careful I am with closing on things. Here on the forum, I have time to think and unpack the Ni, but it's not like that in real life. I mean, I still have sharp intuition, but it arrives as a knowing without a chain of evidence, which sucks, lol. Yeah, same here. It's disposition. I used to want to embody other modes of being, but then when I thought about it and tried it, was like fuck that. There's no escape from you Ni, sorry, lol. Try to immerse yourself in Si, the function furthest from you, and see what kind of hell you create for yourself, lol.

This is like the 3rd time I've heard this. I don't get that impression at all and think you guys are reading her wrong. I think she just likes exploring ideas and sharing her thoughts. Not sure how you guys jump to try-hard. Like, I get the sense she literally doesn't give a fuck, lol. So, I'm hopping in just to say that I think the perception is wrong.

Yeah, I didn't mean Aba either. Aba doesn't appear to have any of the elements. I was agreeing with Leo that I think sadism seems part and parcel to something like narcissism. Maybe not all of them, but most. Every narc I've ever observed was willing to kick anyone and everyone under the bus for their own gain. And if the person they kick under the bus is an enemy, then they will take delight in the kick. So basically, narcissism seems to more often than not have sadism baked into it. I remember telling my buddy a long time ago that if Trump and Hillary Clinton were alone in the desert and if Hillary was hanging from a cliff, Trump would delight in stepping on her fingers to make her fall if he knew he could get away with it. He was like "nuh uh, you're crazy". Trump is sadistic. He delights in ruining people's careers/survival and he makes subtly gleeful announcements when one of his enemies dies. And they wouldn't be so subtle if he didn't have to worry about political backlash. A fucking dark tetrad is running the world right now, lol.

I'm an INTJ, and precision matters more or less depending on context. If the context doesn't call for precision and approximation is more efficient, that's what gets used. Not using the most efficient tool is what gets you called a dumbass, lol. INTPs care too much about precision in most all contexts. That's the problem, lol.

Lol, that must be interesting. I've actually never known any INTJs in real life. Sounds about right though, lol. Stubborn, immovable. Fierce independence of thought. Me too 😆

Yes, I grew up with my mom and my sister and my aunts, and my sister had many attractive friends and I hung out with them often. I even had all girl friend groups in school where I was the only guy in the friend group, and I've been genuine besties with a couple of hot girls. But that doesn't mean I didn't go through very similar challenges with the opposite sex as most other men go through, and it doesn't mean I don't understand crippling anxiety/fear regarding the opposite sex, because I went through that as well.