Emanyalpsid

That you dont know this means that you are only enlightened in the western sense of the word enlightened, with which I mean; the realization of non-self. There are several people on this forum who also reached this state from my interpretation. This state is however only half of the insight, or half of the path to full enlightenment, as thought by the buddha. But congrats, enjoy and may you be well.

These are not great philosophical questions but are very practical oriented questions. That you don`t understand the questions is something different. I will help you though. Non-self is only half of the path to enlightenment in terms of the buddhist use of this term. The right answer, in terms of insight into the nature of reality, would be: It does not exist upon itself as it is of dependent origin. For the flower to exist it is dependent upon space, time, matter, gravity etc. So the essence of the flower is empty as it is of dependent origin. If the flower would only exist out of matter, for example, it would exist upon itself; the matter. If it exists upon itself, you can perceive, or give meaning to it through itself. So one might have let go of the believe of the self, but one is left with the believe of itself. That is the self of it, thinking it exists upon itself. This is your `higher` ego, the ego of it. For the flower to be perceived, something needs to be conscious of it. As your consciousness is also dependent on matter, gravity, space and time, as you need eyes, etc. to perceive the flower and you need a certain distance from the flower to see it, there is nothing actually being perceived. For what is being perceived, is being perceived through it. It came mutually dependent into existence. Therefore it doesn't need to experience itself as it knows that itself came into existence through it. Itself will dissolve, Nirvana. Edit: if you don´t undertand this based upon this text alone, read http://www.foundationsofhumanlife.com. Everything is explained there from beginning to end. Read and reflect! But I would advice to read everything and from the beginning.

Yeah but we are writing here, so I must use words. So, I dont refer to the concept of perceiving, but to the awareness as such. To use an example; I dont refer to the concept of a flower, but to what constitutes a flower. So not in words, but in direct experience. Does that exist upon itself? Edit; of course when we eliminate concepts there is no question. But to understand ourselves we need to know the nature of thought, not reject or ignore it. Without thought one can not live.

@Jack River with nothingness you mean the emptiness of essence? Cause in buddhist text the concept of nothingness is used in terms of a deep meditative state just before reaching nirvana. Where no-thing is perceived but also not nothingness.

Ah but I dont mean the conceptual perception and existence, but I mean that what we perceive without conception. So I mean the raw sense-awareness. Does that exist upon itself? And does it exist independent of consciousness? And how come?

How come?

Yes that is what could possibly happen. An illusion in the mind, created by a numbness of thoughts without having real, experienced ,insight. This is what I suppose 99% of the people have; the illusion of enlightenment created by a numbness in the mind by resting in the answers of someone else. Of course, without thought, someone has an enlightenment experience, but without the insight into the nature of it, you are not even having half the experience one would have with the insight. I can tell you from experience. And so the word `enlightenment` gets thrown around and loses its original meaning as dubbed by buddhism.

Indeed.

Well yes and no. Lets break them down into two question. Does that what we perceive exist independent of consciousness? Does that what we perceive exist upon itself? Meaning; is it there to be perceived?

Indeed, therefor the buddhist teachings are very unclear, or vague, for the western, logical thinking, mind. That is why I wrote the website http://www.foundationsofhumanlife.com to make the buddhist path easier to understand for us western thinkers. The core of his teachings is well preserved though, it is about seeing the dependent nature of reality and oneself. Although almost no one has the courage to read the website though as it is very confronting. People want the easy road, the road without confrontation and doubt, as they think that is the way because it feels good. Wrong! The path without confrontation is never the right path. Getting to enlightenment is confronting yourself over and over again. And the people who do start to read it, skip to page 12 or 13 instead of reading everything. Cause that would take too much time. Then they dont understand what is written on page 12 and 13 or reject it because it does not comply with there believes. And off they go, back into the sea.

Lol what a fairy tale. Saying consciousness is aware of pure ego in sleep are only words but no direct experience. If you fall asleep you lose consciousness, as you are not aware anymore. Your consciousness sleeps. If the body his metabolism stops, the body will not transport glucose to the nerve cells in the brain anymore and your body will not be able to convert neurotransmitter signals from the senses to the brain into seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling and thinking anymore. In other words your consciousness dissolves. Or is it okay if I come to your house and hit you with a baseball bat on the head until your brains pop out? In your words you will still be consciousness right? From what I can make out of your words, you are maybe enlightened in the western meaning of the word enlightenment but definitely not in the eastern meaning of it.

There is no word from the Buddha written anywhere. All the stuff written about him is written by others.

I have a question; does it, and with it I mean that what we perceive, exist upon itself? If so, how come? If not, how come?

Two words

You are saying consciousness is the same as reality. One can think this but then you live in your own mind. You think this is so and you thereby reject 2000 years of empirical scientific evidence and language as a whole. It is the other way around, you think that it exists outside of the body. Consciousness is what you are. How can consciousness exist when it is not conscious of itself? By dillusion.

Sadly, yes or are you aware that there is a consciousness outside of your body?

@Jack River I get what you mean. There should almost be a beginner, intermediate and expert section on this forum so there is some structure and overview. Problem is, everybody would be in the expert section.

@Outer One should look into his thoughts and how they come to be to know oneself and not deny or ignore them. However, dont ask yourself <why>. With asking yourself <why> you are trying to look for the meaning of, or reason behind, your thoughts. You will never find them. If you ask yourself <how come>, you are looking for the cause. That is what you want to find if you want to know yourself.

Lol, it is like sheeps following a shepherd. Someone claims they are enlightened and *pop any rational thought is left behind, cause here is someone to answer your questions... No real enlightened teacher will ever answer your questions, because this means you stop thinking for yourself... And this is the opposite of what you should do if you want to reach this state. I keep being astounded by the nature of it all. Although I can see how this came to be. The desire for enlightenment is so big that one will sacrifice his own thought, as one cant seem to achieve it, by just listening to someone else.

Besides, people dont like to doubt their path. So, if they read something which points to a failure in their own believe, or thinking, they will perceive this as uncomfortable. So they then tend to stop reading, or try to look for possibilities to counterfeit this with their own believes, through arguments or reasoning. However, Nirvana is letting go of all believes. The self, the convinction of oneself, is standing in the way of reaching this, because the self consists out of its believe in itself. So if you read this website http://www.foundationsofhumanlife.com and you read something that does not stroke with your conviction, that does not mean it isnt right. It means it triggers something in yourself and that is where you should look. But I understand that people are tired of reading because of all the bullshit that so many so called teachers throw at them. Also, many peoples ability to concentrate has declined rapidly in this age of internet and smartphones where it looks like one can have every information with one click on google. Of course this is a generalization, there are a lot of people who want to read a book or a long text. But which to choose.... The text or book which is praised by many and which confirms your believes, or the text which lets you feel doubt, uncertainty, rejection, agitation...?

I would say I feel enlightened, with which I mean; my feeling, or state of consciousness, is not disturbed by egocentric emotions, doubtful thoughts about the essence of reality or myself, fears, frustrations due to a worldview that does not match reality, and the desire for meaning. Although someone can not live without desires or thoughts, so of course I have those but my awareness of them and how I react to them is different now. By being aware of the dependent origin of reality, or it, and therefor the emptiness of essence, one knows that his or her desires and thoughts come from the desire for meaning or substance in life. By knowing this, one can switch between being in the thought or desire itself to being the consciousness of these. One is in control of his mind and able to cancel these thoughts or desires at will as he knows that they stem from his own interpretations. Maybe I will open a thread again, as I do not want to hijack this one. But I have to think about how to deal with, or prevent, irrelevant questions taking it over. I already tried it before in this https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/25468-the-definite-guide-to-non-duality-enlightenment-and-the-nature-of-reality/#comment-285890 thread. But it triggered too many people with their own convictions of what they believed enlightenment is and I had to explain themselves. I don't want to repeat that. I will think about it though..

Indeed fake teachers are often clever, but this doesnt mean that the opposite is now true. You got me into thinking about making a thread, but then I get a horseload of irrelevant questions like; can I unlock cities? And i am learning for a health advisor study at the moment and this forums is already a distraction.

Someone who reached nirvana, the ending of the cycle of rebirth, will never say he or she is enlightened, as he or she is not enlightened. There is not a person left anymore who can be enlightened. Someone who reached this, uses his language very subtle and very carefully, as language is very important in communicating. And communication is all we have to share our knowledge and insights. Sadly communication in our technogical advanced society with an overflow of information and ego's who think they have the truth in mind has lost its value. This is one of the reaons why it is so hard for us to get where we want to go, as we are not really listening and reading anymore. And people talk a lot of bullshit. That is to say, if you shoot with a shotgun you will probably hit something, but if you shoot with a sniper rifle you tend to hit it right but only if you are skilled. Your evaluation if someone is enlightened or not depends upon your concept of enlightenment. This concept stems from your experience. So if you have not reached enlightenment yourself, you can not make a distinction if someone is enlightened or not as your judgement stems from an incomplete insight into the nature of reality. In other words; you do not fully comprehend the concept of enlightenment if you have not achieved it yourself. Therefore, I can safely say: someone who says he is enlightened is never enlightened.

Someone who says he IS enlightened, is not really enlightened in the Eastern sense of the word enlightenment. The western sense of the word enlightenment is often the non-self. The dissolution of the self. So, someone who says he is enlightened is still something. And is therefore not even enlightened in the Western sense of the word. The Eastern meaning of enlightenment goes much further and points to insight in the nature of reality as a whole and not just the self. In that sense, someone can feel enlightened, but he is nothing besides consciousness. Read http://www.foundationsofhumanlife.com if you want to know more about this.