Emanyalpsid

@Serotoninluv Your example of the illusion picture of the old and young woman is a helpful example. Thank you. The young woman and the old woman are both present formless in the picture. For the old woman or the young woman to form, the conditions have to be met (our mind has to interpret the lines in the picture). If one forms, the other stays formless, but is still there. But also, in the example with the flower; the flower (formless) is still present in the seed (form). The seed comes from the flower. The next flower (formless) is already present in the seed, because a new flower will grow from the seed. Just like a tree is still present in a piece of paper, but also the clouds are still present in that paper, and the soil, and the sun, etc.....everything around, before and after the piece of paper makes it the paper. And because the paper needs everything, it is nothing (empty). This holds for anything. This is dependent arising. Anything is dependent upon everything, therefore it is nothing (empty). This means nothing is really formed, because it is empty (cannot be defined) and nothing is formless (also the formless needs everything and is therefore empty). This dependent arising makes up the universe; space, time, matter, gravity, mass, energy, etc. Everything is dependent arising. Space is dependent upon time, matter is dependent upon gravity, life is dependent upon it's environment, senses are dependent upon the body, etc.. The funny thing is, that you can find this dependent arising in everything. Even in science they discovered this (Einstein's space-time and matter-gravity). Of course these are all concepts trying to define something in a seamless stream of reality, which we experience through the senses, but the mental fabrications arise out of the formless. Form is dependent upon formless and anything is dependent upon everything. I refer to reality here, what most of you guys refer to as spirituality consciousness. If the condition of space-time is not there, not the concept but the actual, there would be no consciousness or reality (universe). Consciousness is dependent upon the body. Even if you dream this holds, as dreams are consciousness, which is dependent upon your body, which is dependent upon the environment, which is dependent upon space-time. Of course you cannot prove this while you're dreaming, because you're dreaming. Our body proves our dependence on nature in every aspect, and us perceiving reality through it, through the 6 types of form consciousness; seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling and thinking. You can't identify a source of dependent arising, because the cause is dependent upon the effect. And because nothing (emptiness) can't be identified, let alone be defined, consequently a source can also not be identified or defined, besides the illusion/delusion/belief of it. There is no source, as nothing arises. Another reason for this to be a futile endeavour is that you are part of everything, so one can only look as far as one's eyes can see and it will only be what is seen. Just as you can only rationalize as far as the mind can think and it will only be what is thought. I believe this dependent arising is what you @Serotoninluv call Maya? The cause, or source, of our experience of the universe, or consciousness (depending on how you want to name it) in the flow of time. So, what is consciousness? Anything requires everything and therefore it is nothing (empty). What is? nothing is formed, because what is formed requires everything and is therefore empty (nothing). But this doesn't mean that nothing is not without form. It is already there, however it has not manifested itself, it is formless. But even this formless requires everything and is therefore nothing. So, nothing is also formless. If you realize this, there is nothing of you left, you dissolved the form and formless consciousness, as you realized it was nothing else than a mental fabrication to begin with; an attempt to identify with what you experience. Form consciousness developed out of formless consciousness. So, you can abandon form consciousness, but then you are not completely liberated as you still cling to formless consciousness, which is also part of dependent arising. Nothing, and nothing is not. Another funny thing is that when you realize this, there are no existential questions left. However, I experience they do still rise sometimes, up until now. I expect them to stop in the future, as the first question is always; What is? But because you already resolved this question, that is where the question immediately dissolves, you know the answer. The mind is very eager to identify with something. So you cling to something you call Maya, which you see as the source of all of this. But this source is beyond nature, that is why I called it supernatural. You identify with Maya, even if you do not think about Maya, it is there formless. You are Maya. You suffer from Maya, because in everything you see, hear, taste, smell, touch, and think, you identify Maya. And although it might be only small distinctions, they are there. What is Maya? What is?

I see that I in writing the first post, I wrote a rather vague description. I referred there to "formless manifestations", with that I meant that the formless is present in other form manifestations. Form is a manifestation of the formless.

You keep your Maya. I don't need it. There is no me. You say my experience aint it, but you can't explain why. You just refer to Maya. That is like the same as a christian would refer to God. That game would also yield no winners.

Ah the supernatural.. Thanks anyway.

Because you posted it here, I watched a bit. He explains non-duality. That is the starting point for this inquiry, although insight into dependent arising is also needed.

You seem to want to tell/ me something. What ain't what? What is it you think I seem to not have realized? Until now I followed your story, but it didn't show me anything I didn't already know.

I formed the questions after the experience, in an attempt to see if others could experience the same. It seems they do not work for you, which is fine. The questions didn't seek answers in words, like I explained earlier. They were mere a starting point for an inquiry into the formless. Although the experience can be put in words, like I did in the topic I linked to. Thanks for your messages. I am still interested to see what @Mu_ got out of the inquiry though. Where did you go? What was the process?

Exactly. So what are you?

I just used it as an example to explain that form and formless are simultaneous. You might have gotten confused if I referred to the seed as being both form and formless at the same time, but you already grasped this I see. The formless flower however is also there, if it is in an idea it has formed. The flower can also already be in formless consciousness. Yes you understand this. I just tried to find an example to explain things. I am doing my best here. Now the question remains; what is the seed in form and formless?

Thanks for taking the inquiry and for your feedback. And if it is everything, it is also..?

@Serotoninluv the key is in everything is nothing. The emptiness (nothing) of form, it needs everything. The flower cannot be defined, because it is also the rain, the clouds, the sun, the soil, etc (dependent arising). It needs everything and is thus nothing (empty). And the emptiness (nothing) of formless. It cannot be defined as it is formless, but it is there, you can identify it. The flower is already in the seed, the conditions have just not met for it to manifest (form). You know the flower is already there. The flower needs to grow first to manifest itself. But it is already there, formless. If someone asks you why you plant the seed, you will say; because a flower will grow (if the conditions are met). Thus, everything is also formless, therefore it is nothing. The actual growing of the flower is only its manifestation. You will see that you are everything and thus nothing, you will not identify with anything anymore, you dissolve. The last thing you cling to is formless consciousness, you can't define it, but it is there. You just need to identify it. The formless mental Fabrications are there. They are that which thoughts are formed out of. Form consciousness comes from formless consciousness. They are the last fabrications of your mind you identify with (without you knowing it yet). This is not to say that afterwards, they don't exist anymore. You just don't identify with them. An important prerequisite is knowing that form consciousness is sight, sound, smell, taste, touch and thought. 6 forms of consciousness. But you probably already knew this.

There are no dynamics playing in this mind. Stop projecting. Haha man oh man. What thought loops? Another projection. Who do you want to fool? What do you want to achieve? Besides, you are ignoring what I said. This makes no sense, so I will stop here.

No, I am just saying that not knowing is being ignorant. Meaning; you are ignorant. Your answer to the question 'what is', is; I don't know. So ignorance is. That is you. So you are not dissolved, just ignorant. This forms when you say I don't know, it is a manifestation. Which is fine if you are happy, but it is not Nirvana. In Nirvana the answer to that question is something in the lines of; nothing is and nothing is not. Which means; nothing is formed and nothing is formless. Poof, gone. There is more to be revealed to you, I have spent 1,5 years in the dimension between non-duality and Nirvana (not saying you need all this time, but I progressed quite fast I think), but a month ago you were still in non-duality. You seem to dwell somewhere beyond non-duality, although I cannot pinpoint where.

The same goes for you, being ignorant is not Nirvana. Mu_ got there I believe.

Oh man, stop these mind games. You know what I am asking. With how come I mean; what was the process from that you thought you knew, to you don't know what you are? Or have you forgotten that? I have explained the process which led to the dissolving of my existence. I know what I am not. Being ignorant is not Nirvana.