RolandM

@Leo Gura @SerpaeTetra Yeah, I suppose these really are the most realistic options. I was optimistically hoping that there's a secret anarchist island community everyone goes to the moment you become enlightened.

I would love to, but again, this requires some kind of income if I don't want to eventually run myself into the ground. I could bum off others, but that doesn't feel right to me.

Hi @ajasatya , thanks for the suggestion. It's a good one, but unfortunately there are no ecovillages in my area, nor is my current home able to accommodate a garden. I think growing my own food would be ideal, but is something that first requires the means to relocate and be able to afford a garden that could sustain me.

The past week and a half I have been coasting the duel/nondeul border and have been the most happy, loving, and satisfied I have ever been in my life. Yesterday, self-doubt began to creep back in and I feel like I've been thrust back into this cold ego-dominated reality. I am not depressed or anxious as I would normally be, I've worked out those feelings, just in a situation I know isn't right and its starting to take hold of me. For over a week, everything made so much sense and had meaning, and now that I am back I realize that nothing can make sense here, and never has made sense. I am back to studying Biology, as I have for the past 6 years (1 year from graduating, as always), memorizing language and steps, but understanding none of it. The professors speak and all I hear is ambiguous nonsense. I realize that the path I've been following is not a path of joy, but a path of practicality. I've lived in poverty my entire life, and the main driving force to finish college has been the fear of staying in poverty, not having food and shelter. I feel like I have made strides in my self-improvement lately and I am so close to reaching a stable enlightenment that I should be focusing on this full-time. But then 'reality' hits, and I need money to live, and here's this path I've been working on for years, and here's this vague future I've imagined for myself, and none of this really matters yet at the same time it has to. I know a truly enlightened mindset would be happy with whatever situation is given, but I don't feel free here. I feel coerced into this society, I feel taken advantage of every step of the way, and I feel isolated from those who can go on living like this as if anything about this life were okay. I know that there's power in letting go, but society is holding a bed of nails beneath me and its fucking scary. I can't live like this, it doesn't make any sense. Even if I do let go and I reach enlightenment because of it, how can I bring myself to get a job and perpetuate this hopeless system we're a part of? I just need a break so that I don't have to worry but every option seems like a path in the opposite direction or a path to homelessness. Any suggestions?

Hello, I had a similar experience that led to psychosis and hospitalization, you can read about it here: I hope there are some insights here that you can relate to, one of the primary motifs being doubt, and how it turned psychosis into a self-fulfilling prophecy. The doubt that sets in when everyone around you convinces you that what you experienced is not real, even though it felt more real than anything you've experienced in your life. The medication reinforces this, as if a reality of eating and sleeping all day were acceptable. Everyone here is giving great advice, and it does sound likely that there is some trauma that needs to be faced head on slowly but without yield. There certainly was for me, and my psychosis was the quick and violent way of resolving this trauma completely. If I have to give any advice, its to educate yourself on nonduality/spirituality/etc until you see that the label of mental illness can only do harm and needs to be dropped completely. You are doing hard work that needs to be done, but we also can't succumb to delusion and think that the answer lies within a certain ideology, religion, or science. Realize that this is all different language to explain the same thing, and the only one who can give proscriptions on how to live is you. Question everything that gives you an easy answer. When you are ready, I recommend tapering off medication SLOWLY, and only tell others afterwards when they can see that this is good for you and you are doing better. I halved my 20mg of olanzapine every 2 or so weeks, and in the end I realized that life was so much better than it was pre-psychosis. I have induced the "psychosis" several times since then, and each time I become more comfortable with the idea that this can only bring good to myself and others. I have learned to adapt my language to other's understanding, and if you meet others where they are they will not fear you. Everyone has an idea of God and spirituality, but literally saying "I am God" triggers the red flags of mental illness in their minds. Despite the Christian-dominated culture we live in, we still crucify Jesus every time he shows his face. You need support though in order to get through the doubts and fear of relapse, and we're here for you.

@Nahm You speak some truth. Maybe seeing nonduality as a state delegitimizes the overarching truth of it all, as if nonduality was a subset of the unquestionable ego. I can not help but distinguish however, that there are moments when the ego is present, and when it is not. This is a distinction that needs to be deconstructed with time. You say there are no beliefs, and I agree that when the ego is absent there are no need for beliefs, but the ego needs belief in order to feel safe in the vast unknown without fear. I know I eventually need to be at a place where I can simply 'let go', but the ego is not ready to let go, and I shouldn't ignore that feeling. There are loose ends that need to be tied up for the ego to accept that it is no longer needed to protect me like a worried mother, and make sure I don't make the same mistakes as last time and end up in a mental hospital or homeless. It needs to know that if life were a dream of my own creation, I would love it and everything in it, never harm it. And if the time came that the ego took hold again, I need to know that everything will be okay and there is no need for depression; that I will make it back in time. I cannot simply cut off the ego cold turkey, instead respect it as if it were another person, love it, and accept it until it can let go consensually.

@Barna Thanks for the suggestion, his work seems interesting and I will definitely read more of his stuff! @Mu_ Thank you for the advice. This comment inspired me to get back into contact with my old therapist, who I found out specializes in spirituality. He definitely gets my situation from both psychological and spiritual perspectives, which is immensely helpful in helping me contextualize the experience and confront sources of doubt. @Barna Man, you explained the loop thing so elegantly its as if I said it to myself (tehe)! Since this post I have been focusing on understanding and systematizing this loop phenomenon, and I've gotten to a point that I can build it up and trigger the loop for a short time before doubt sets in and brings me back to 'reality'. Once I test and refine this method thoroughly I will probably have a long post to share on the forum. It is very much how you explain though. I think the most important part of this exercise is to understand that when we ask ourselves a question, we tend to state the conclusion first, then go backwards and work our way to that conclusion. For example, someone asks you if you believe in evolution, you respond "of course I do!" and then work backwards through the concept to try to justify the belief. In that moment after the question is asked, you have no idea why evolution is true, all you know is that you identify with this conclusion because it made sense to you in the past. We have to be purely creative with this process in a way that we are only moving forward toward more questions without identifying with presumptions. I found that if I lost focus in this process, it was my brain trying to do the backward reasoning I mentioned because I did not truly understand what I was asking, and the line of thought needed to be dropped immediately in order to move forward. Everything you ask you already know through direct experience, you are simply using reason to make connections in real-time. Let intuition fuel your logic: follow that "AHA!" moment until it becomes continuous. @Hamilcar Existential crisis, craziness, spiritual experience... Here we have a philosophical, psychological, and spiritual interpretation of the same phenomenon. The difference being two of them have negative connotations that run deep in our psyche and society, the third positive. You felt this feeling of wrongness deep in your heart, but your rational functions quickly covered this feeling of doubting what you think you know with something you "know" you know: that questioning reality is "crazy". Is it possible that the concept of crazy was created by ourselves to doubt and fear the explainable, especially in our science-centered culture? I feel like spirituality can ease our doubts of the unknown and bridge the gap between what we think we know with science and these completely normal feelings of existential doubt, giving us the opportunity to accept these feelings and learn more about their origin. @Nahm "Rather than create doubt and reject it, see how you’re creating it." Throughout my intense self-inquiry work the past few days I've come back to your post with renewed meaning. As much progress I think I am making I will never truly get anywhere if I do not face the doubt, and understand its true source as it applies conceptually and personally. I've found that essentially, my doubts arise through a duality between logic and emotion. I've been able to access the non-duel state a few times this week and I've found that I can only comfortably get there when my emotional intuition and logical reasoning are reinforcing each other every step of the way. When I reach the nondual state, the duality is gone and I am in a state of absolute equilibrium and acceptance of my new reality. This lasts a while, but then one of two things eventually happen as I progress further into the state: The ego's emotions exceed its ability to logically explain this new reality (e.g. colors/feeling become so vivid that logic starts to doubt this is possible), or the ego's logic exceeds its ability to feel emotionally comfortable with reality (e.g. people's movements begin to seem automatic and simulated like a computer, I get a feeling of coldness toward this deterministic reality.) The moment I start thinking to try to explain these discrepancies I go into a period of decoherence: I am trying to explain the dualistic reality with my nondualistic understanding and for a while language simply makes no sense to me and I become profoundly confused until I return to baseline. The good news is that I am finding that each time I go through this process I return at a point slightly higher than baseline and am able to reconcile emotion and logic into a sincere 'belief' of my progressing concept of reality, but it is extremely important that I try to calm myself down and meditate before panic sets in. Like you say, 'slow and steady wins the race'. The first time I entered this stage I tried to take it as far as I could, disregarding what my emotions and logic were telling me until I was in a dark hole of utter panic and disbelief. I need to find a responsible balance: use the non duel state to find insight, and then step back a little to conceptually reinforce reality.

Hello all, sorry for the long post, I tried to keep it as concise as possible, but I have a lot to say about my experience. First, some background: I have always been a very depressed, socially anxious, quiet, asocial person who has constantly questioned everything. I am studying biology and philosophy in university, and have never been interested in religion, hippie, or new age interpretations of the world, nor have I ever sought out or been aware of the concept of spiritual enlightenment; my goal has always been to figure out this confusing existence on my own, even if that meant denying everyone including myself. A week prior to my experience, I started going to therapy due to an extreme stress and skepticism I started having toward reality. All I could think about were the various bizarre contradictions we are faced with on a daily basis that we are expected to ignore in order to keep on living: how is it possible that we exist? Why does society strive for ideals that are impossible to reach? Am I an impossible ideal? Who am I? Over the course of a week, I began going back to old and repressed memories that I would regularly ruminate on, really trying to question their source. I always believed I was the way I was due to the bad circumstances in my childhood; poverty, abandonment, abuse, etc. But memory by memory I started to realize I didn’t really care about my misfortunes in life as a child. Something negative would happen, such as my mother leaving, then the people around me would start telling me how horrible this is and how troubled I must be, and I would believe them and start to identify with this misfortune and express it in my personality (through music, looks, humor). Then I went further. Did I ever really feel anything, or was it a response to social expectation, like a child who falls down and only cries because the parent watching you expects you to. Unless the pain was directly experienced in that moment, then the pain was artificial. My pain only came afterward when I had concepts of who I was supposed to be and what I was supposed to have as dictated by others. I started to think I was a psychopath! I eventually backtracked to a moment when there wasn’t any expectation for me to be a person: my first memory when I was about 3 years old. I remember sitting in a flower bed, looking at ants with a magnifying glass wondering “what dis? How it get here?” and then looking around with astonishment thinking “what am I? How did I get here??” I realized that this, at its very core, was me. Everything after this stage was a path of others telling me what I should be, do, learn, feel, strive for; the various ways I was supposed to suffer. But what was I then? Nothing but curiosity and experience. There was no future, no past, no direction, no doubt. Doubt was gradually planted into me every step of the way, to ensure I developed into a “normal” kid. I spent several days contemplating this. Things were finally starting to make sense, my entire ego was starting to make sense, as well as the contradicting behaviors of society. As I lay in bed that night, the dots began connecting faster and faster as so many of questions were starting to be answered by this new outlook (e.g. what is the point of preference? It seems like we create preference simply so we can identify ourselves with something, and in the end, we’ve just limited the enjoyment we can get out of life!) But there was something grand, something unifying about this pattern that I was on the edge of, as if ego and personality were an excuse for people to guard the pieces of this same overarching puzzle. I lay there in my bed, my heart pounding out of my chest, my head full of pressure as if it were about to explode. I remember thinking to myself “if I ask one more question I am going to die”. I was scared out of my mind, but I decided I was ready to die and that the truth was worth it, so I took the last step and let the questions answer themselves. Suddenly, in an explosion of euphoria I dissolved. Without words, the questions in my mind began to resolve themselves in an infinite cascade of logic (and not logic?). I was everything. I was nothing. I was the universe. I was God. I was all of those things, and none of those things. Language could only ever be a cliché metaphor for the truth, and before the truth I was only language. There was no meaning in that life, because concepts can only be clichés until they are directly defined by experience, and now was the only time I have ever truly experienced anything. As Leo put it, the phenomenal and the noumenal had collapsed into one without the conceptual world acting as a buffer. Logic and mathematics weren’t abstract anymore, they were the shape that glued reality together. I didn’t sleep that night, I couldn’t sleep. Sleep didn’t make sense anymore, I could only close my eyes and go into a deep meditation. When the climax settled down enough that I could function again, I wrote about 20 pages in my journal in a single automatic flow, without thought or revision. I closed my eyes and could see the words scrolling through my vision. I went to the beach and truly saw the ocean for the first time, truly saw color for the first time. I couldn’t distinguish between me and the ocean, or a rock, or my girlfriend (any time I’d refer to “me” I’d unintentionally say “we” instead). I felt a profound duty to help all people and animals and environment, and I knew the ambitious path I had to take to get there. (I remember I accidently mashed an ant on my counter, and I spent the next 30 minutes trying to nurse it back to health.) Most strangely, and I haven’t read about this phenomenon before, I had the ability to control my perception of time. It was as if all I had to do was briefly set my mind on a task, such as take a shower, and then execute that task. I would then watch myself automatically do that task sped up with the utmost flow. There was already a path to take, purely determined, and all I had to do was watch it unfold like pressing fast-forward on the Sims. When I went out in public I had to have a metronome playing in my ear so I could calibrate myself to the speed of a second and not scare people with my fast movements. This was extremely bizarre, and I don’t really know how to explain it. (Possibly my sense of time sped up because my brain didn’t have to constantly refer to the ego while making decisions; maybe the normal process of planning ahead, remembering the past, and executing in the present gives us a sense of time that is slower. I don’t know, I can elaborate more on this if you ask). This absolute joy and satisfaction with life lasted about a week, but eventually things started to break down. I had not ate or slept this entire week since I was so engrossed in everything other than my body. The ego would start to slip back in, and try to conceptualize a thought that was beyond words. “Obviously this can be explained with string theory. Obviously this is M-theory. This is religion, or some psychological phenomenon.” Worst of all, “this is mental illness.” My ego violently tried to take back my identity with the concept of doubt. I would read something online, or watch a video: obviously EVERYONE is talking about the truth; the struggle in the storyline of a movie, this is my struggle, this is the universe’s struggle. The movie is talking directly to me, to itself. This sounds like mental illness, doesn’t it? People in the streets, talking about each other, gossiping about each other, gossiping about me. This sounds like mental illness, doesn’t it? I’d try to explain my theories to my girlfriend and my therapist, it sounds like gibberish because my mind has made connections between concepts that only make sense in the nondual state. Schizophrenia? I am extremely elated because everything I experience is giving me immense joy and a sense of energy. Mania? This is when paranoia set in. Obviously, if I were an immoral person this state would be extremely dangerous. I am extremely perceptive of the flow of communication, if people knew this they would think I’m trying to manipulate them. If they knew how happy I was they would be jealous. If our capitalist society knew I didn’t need to buy from them they would disregard me. If people saw my odd behaviors they would think I’m unpredictable and fear for their lives. I am the gene that could break evolution, and it only makes sense that the masses would benefit from destroying me. And that’s what they did. My therapist called an ambulance when I tried to explain this to him. He diagnosed me as psychotic and manic and they took me to the hospital on an involuntary hold. Things got really, really bad. Confined to my hospital bed, my perception of time spiraled out of control. My mind would race through the infinite at top speed, arrive to the conclusion “but this is illogical, you are crazy” and then iterate this loop over, and over, and over. The form of logic began to express itself through a rapid flow of arm movements and hand gestures, and I appeared as a crazy man flailing his arms around wildly. They tied me down to the hospital bed so I couldn’t move. The doubt that was instilled into my mind manifested itself in the form of pure evil. With the variable of doubt, nothing can make sense. Everyone around me was trying to hurt me, all I wanted to do was help them but no one can trust my oddities. And I can’t trust them. I can’t trust myself. I am Jesus nailed to cross. I’m in the 1940s, doctors are trying to lobotomize me. I am in the future, people are trying to dismantle me. I am in a coma and I’ve been trying to wake up for hundreds of years. I am the singularity of a black hole. I am the chaotic void before the big bang. I am pure universal destruction. My thoughts and perceptions began to leave me until nothing was left but abstract colors and shapes, completely removed from this world. I spent what felt like 100s of years in absolute hell, in every sense of the word. I regained consciousness 4 days later, while sitting in the dining room of a mental hospital. I looked down and saw a violent abstract painting that I had no memory of painting. I was profoundly confused and disoriented, and it took me another 3 days before I could fully understand where I was and what had happened. When I went home they had me on antipsychotics, which just made me want to eat and sleep all day. I had to drop out of the semester, and I had slipped into a deep depression for the next few weeks. I thought I had the truth, and then I lost it. Maybe it wasn’t the truth after all. I recently weened myself off of medication and I am feeling much, much better. Despite the hell of the situation, I feel that what I got out of the beginning has improved my life drastically. I haven’t felt depressed, my anxiety has gone down considerably, and I don’t ruminate over the past. I thought I was absolutely nuts until I started reading and watching Leo’s content about enlightenment, there is a lot that coincides with what he’s saying I’m starting to feel like what I had experienced has more in common with enlightenment than mental illness. After all, if mental illness has changed my life permanently for the better, why should it be perceived as an illness? The experience I was having wasn’t the damaging part, it was the stigmatization and paranoia about mental illness that society instilled into me. It was doubt about who I really am, who we really are. The same doubt that was instilled into that 3 year old child all those years ago. I want to go back to those first moments, before the doubt set in. But first I need to learn more and become more disciplined in rejecting doubt. I’ve read a lot about how to get there, but no one really talks about how to stay there, how to adapt and function in this new world. Hopefully you guys can help me out a little. =) What do you think? Was this mental illness, enlightenment, or something else? Do you think others going through psychosis are getting a glimpse of enlightenment without the proper understanding to interpret it?