Consilience

I used to agree with this sentiment. Meditation + psychedelics are the way to go. And I think for beginner practitioners I do still generally agree with this stance. But the last handful of trips I've done have pretty noticeably disrupted momentum with meditation. They've created these microscopic fluctuations in the quality of my attention and created what could be described as small yet detectable rips in my energy body, energy just doesn't flow as harmoniously a week post trip compared to what I'm leading into the trip with. Because of all of the retreats I've done, my sensitivity to the energy body and mind are way way way higher than when I first began using psychedelics, which is probably why I'm able to see these disruptions now vs. then. However, because of the highly deconstructive nature of psychedelic experiences, I still think they are incredibly useful for most beginners and because of the immense power they have for working through healing, emotional blockages and even energy blockages, I still think they are incredibly useful. In fact, I personally think mainstream psychedelic usage will be a necessity for humanity to confront the growing number of existential threats facing the planet. Collectively, we need something more powerful than meditation to snap us out of our delusion. That all being said, for advanced meditation practitioners who have experienced God many times, who have faced death many times on psychedelics, the work becomes about rewiring the default state of mind to merge with the absolute nature of God's mind. Meditation does this, particularly when one has the vast understanding from prior psychedelic usage, a kind of energetic vision of where the path leads. But ultimately the rewiring process takes place at supra-subtle levels of mind that simply cannot be accessed via psychedelics due to their overwhelming power and intensity, as well as their transitory quality. The microcosmic changes meditation produces simply are not produced from psychedelics, but these changes are required to transform the meditator's mind into again, the mind of God. Because this process of slowly transforming the mind is so delicate, subtle, and demands an extremely advanced attentional clarity, I am not convinced regular psychedelic usage makes sense for advanced practitioners. Occasional usage I think would have benefit. Perhaps once every 4 - 12 months. Psychedelics are also useful litmus tests for how strong one's practice is. If you can't remain clear while reality is crumbling around you, is your practice really that strong? However again, because the process of rewiring the mind from the unconscious to the conscious is so delicate, subtle, and demands an extremely advanced attentional clarity all of which frequent or even infrequent use of psychedelics can disrupt, I am not convinced regular psychedelic usage makes sense for advanced practitioners. This is most likely why teachers are against their usage. The consequences of psychedelics on the energy body and ability for the mind to access subtle aspects of itself while in the sober state is not very well understood in the west. All of this being said, I am still a proponent of their use, especially for noobies, especially in the context of healing, and even more so in the context of existential risk.

Ive listened to people who’ve meditated for less and are mind blowing. Stepping into their presence sends me into instant, deep samadhi. Are these kinds of teachers rare? Yes of course. The training quality and personal intentionality one practices with vary greatly person to person. How deeply one deconstructs varies from person to person as well, which impacts the depth one can achieve with practice. You’d be wise to drop this “meditates for 40 years and gets nowhere” nonsense.

Many are deluded I agree, but not all, and this doesn’t negate the value of the teachings. Just look at your audience. This is like saying I don’t eat because eating is a dream. Horrible logic. Anyways yes, meditation is a dream, psychedelics are a dream, and it’s the self interacting with itself, playing with itself endlessly.

> Has barely done any meditation training > Hasnt been on a meditation retreat in years > Routinely shits on meditation and meditation teachers > Has a questionable daily practice > trust me bro ?

With sufficient training you can sustain these states throughout the day.

Beautiful.

Yeah this has been an interesting thread…

Good. Will help clear things up, especially for noobies. And if experiencing radical levels of fulfillment, the divinity of the ordinary mind/state, dramatic levels of emotional wellness, and the embodiment of truth are all waste of time, well Im ready to waste this entire life away. ?

A real Buddhist understands impermanence is a teaching specific to form.

/thread

@Leo Gura on what basis do you include Ralston on this list?

You’ve got it backwards. A non awake being needs a teacher more than someone who’s awakened. Why is it so difficult to see how a teacher would be helpful? Why is it so difficult to see a teacher being helpful is not the same as thinking a teacher can give you awaking?

No one is saying hand one’s ultimate authority over to a guru, although even that can have a certain power if you’ve found a trustworthy, legitimate guru. No one is saying a guru can give you enlightenment. A guru, teacher, guide merely facilitates a more efficient path to awakening than trying to do it alone. When walking the path completely alone, one is bound to become gridlocked in their own shadows, hidden biases and beliefs, and ultimately stuck in self-deception. Having feedback, in any domain whether spiritual, intellectual, physical, is indispensable. Missing this point is a sign of foolishness and arrogance. Having feedback is not the same as believing the guru can give you awakening. It is a position of trusting that what comes from within and with out are both sources of information. Learning to discern which ‘frequencies’ of information are helpful, again both external and internal, is part of the cultivation of wisdom and intuition. As an aside, everyone who’s parroting this of independence is missing the fundamental point that there was never such a thing as independence. You wouldn’t even be in a position to take a stance on independent authority if it weren’t for numberless external factors (including teachers!) paving some kind of path for you to walk.

@Kksd74628 Im not sure why my communication came across so clearly to you but keeps stirring the pot in others.. ? But yes exactly, what you’re describing is spit on.

One of the deepest traps on the path is believing in your own independence and trusting that which is untrustworthy. The tricky part is that while the ego is untrustworthy, it also lacks the clarity to recognize it’s own untrustworthiness. To throw out the utility of spiritual masters before you’re ready is a dire mistake and can lead one down many dead ends, such as psychedelics being the route to real awakening, or neo advaita like ideology as @axiom seems to have adopted. There is no spiritual master, which is precisely why it is a good idea to trust in one. To trust in a masters help is to trust in yourself. To recognize the interconnectedness of all is wisdom. To separate and cling, as the OP implies, is foolishness. Edit: if you think any of these comments suggest a master can do the work for you or somehow give you awakening, you’re projecting. This is not what I am suggesting at all. But a master, a real one and one you resonate with, can see ways you’re deluding yourself and point them out. When encountering a real master, there is no longer a you encountering a master, just a culminating of powerful forces interacting, reality working itself out without any self interference.

The fact that this is your interpretation is extremely telling.

This is pure ego and a recipe for self-deception. There is no you to put your responsibility off to or others to give responsibility or authority. Did you really miss how deep this is? Are you this self-bias you’re missing something so obvious? The authority you’re clinging to is no more or less authoritative than your own direct experience. Both are direct experience. Your entire post is mental, egoic masturbation. The authority you think hold is like dust, worthless than actually. If you don’t have the humility to recognize wisdom, to recognize awakened mind outside of the activity of your own mind (ie the ability to recognize an awakened mind in a teacher), you’re pretty much fucked. Of course the only one that can awaken is you. But if you think what my post points to contradicts this, you’re not understanding what’s being pointed to.

The mistake is thinking your little ego mind and body are some kind of authority figure, which by the tone and judgement of other teachers, seems to be the implicit assumption. “Because Im god, Im the ultimate authority, therefore, other teachers can’t hold authority over me.” This entire chain of reason is mired in self clinging, self deception, and illusion. It’s really quite simple. If you are God, and God is solipsistic, any teacher is also a manifestation of you. Therefore, when giving one’s authority over to a teacher, you’re really choosing to give authority over to yourself. The question is, as God, do you give authority over to the ego/mind, or a teacher? Both are you. In either decision, you’ve handed your authority over to yourself. This is the part this post misses, and Leo missed as well. Which is more trustworthy? A spiritual master, or your petty ego/mind?

Such a great reply! The importance of dropping self-clinging in all modalities of perception seems to be lost in the goenka community. Self clinging can literally exist as mental imagery and therefore exist even as body sensations are seen as non-self. Self clinging can exist within the perceptions of space, in sight sound and touch. It’s not enough to deconstruct the body and emotions as they relate to the sensations of touch. Sounds and sights, in all forms, must be penetrated. This is why I love the Unified Mindfulness approach to vipassana.

You should look into Shinzen Young’s work. Teaches vipassana without the dogma and imo way more effective than the Goenka approach. The specifics for why this is the case are nuanced, deep, and a little beyond a simply reply. I highly would suggest you look into the unified mindfulness system though. The fundamental shifts happening as a result of the goenka body scanning technique needed for liberating insight are not specific to vipassana or Buddhism. That being said, you’re still doing great work on the 10 day retreats. Dont doubt the power of the practice. Just doubt the dogma attached.

Real wisdom. Your posts are a breath of fresh air around these parts. I would add, their comes a point when even psychedelics stop being as useful. The time spent preparing, tripping, and coming down would have been better spent just meditating. Again, unlike psychedelics, meditation create permanent shifts in mental activity and permanent shifts in one’s direct experience. The significance of this is so fucking critical, and Im still utterly shocked how so many on this forum completely miss this.

Nope. Meditation is extremely effective at accessing and ACTUALLY reprogramming the subconscious mind, unlike psychedelics which offer temporary shifts. The examples you’re describing are not indicative of meditation, but the individuals. If the individuals really wanted to go in and face their fears, reprogram their minds, deconstruct their world views and seek truth, meditation is an indispensable tool. Meditation doesn’t necessarily or automatically create transformation, it demands the practitioner do more than just the practice - contemplation, right action, speech, thought, studying, and working with a real teacher.

How many retreats do you go on per year? Who is your teacher? How many hours a day do you practice? What is your main technique/approach? You keep making excuses about why you shouldn’t have to do the work, why you’ve already done the work, etc. The fact of the matter is, this takes time, sometimes 10+ years depending on the persons karma. Keep going is the best advice you’ll receive but if you don’t have the wisdom to receive it, you’re not going to find what you’re looking for.

Not to be dismissive but I doubt you really did what Im referring to. The degree of work Im talking about is incredibly rare; you’ll be so busy contemplating and meditating, you wouldnt have any room for the type of shallow doubt you’re describing in your post. Moreover, if you’ve met legitimate masters, you know what is possible with manual practice. If not, seek a real master out. Edit: Leo once said in a blog post we should be going on silent retreats once a quarter. This is a good place to start. Having actually followed through the this advice the last 2.5 years, I can confirm it works. Have you thrown yourself in completely and utterly? Have you worked to build a lifestyle around this path? If not, you’re not going to wake up. There is a reason sages, mystics, monks, and yogis give up everything to pursue the truth. It is a full time endeavor.

Meditation and not dropping the technique outside of formal practice. You should also be going on multiple retreats per year, studying with masters, and relentlessly practicing. Dont expect 1 hour per day to cut it. But after a certain point, the practice takes a life of its own and starts exponentially compounding. Instead of chasing God, God will chase you, and then, well, poof. ?