Consilience

@zurew Alright fair, point taken. This is quite similar with the hierarchy of "wisdom" from MAPLE. Seems like the main difference is the degree of power consolidation accumulated on the basis of the authority. So at MAPLE, as you were rewarded with the admission of "wisdom" by the head teacher, and moved up the chain of command, you were simultaneously rewarded in the sense that you had more decision making power of the day to day unfolding of the community, but more and more deeply extracted from in terms of personal autonomy and sovereignty. Those closest in leadership all speak, talk, and act based on very consistent psychological scripts provided by Soryu. It's literally like watching a mind virus just say the same things over and over, almost no creativity, originality, or authenticity. Which yeah, a lot of the God language around here seems to fall into a similar camp, hopefully without the extraction of life energy component.

I don't have the time (or energy) to read through all of these replies, currently responding to an all out attack from MAPLE on my channel and the aftermath for those most impacted from the assault. I would greatly appreciate the community doesn't turn this thread into a debate about whether Actualized.org is a cult. Even if it has cult like characteristics and is defined as a cult by certain standards, the level of nervous system hijacking and injury, the elements of energetic rape and domination of mind, body, and reality present at MAPLE is in a league of its own compared to Actualized.org. Having been apart of both communities throughout my spiritual journey, comparing the two as both being cults like trying to compare tee ball with the major leagues. And until you've stepped in front of a cult leader like Soryu for an extended period of time, you don't know what you're talking about. The only caveat I will say is that I'm not super present on the forum these days so perhaps the cult dynamics of Actualized.org have gotten worse recently, but I would be utterly shocked if Actualized.org even had the potential to turn into anything remotely like MAPLE. Please start another thread about Actualized.org being a cult if you'd like. It could be an important discussion. But in this thread, this dialogue distracts from an on-going present moment cult situation I am actively having to navigate.

@zurew All of the points you're raising are worth holding, but for me the difference is I literally just see through the narcissism and move on. At MAPLE there were literal survival based consequences for not being lock step with leadership or the head teacher. The power dynamics of an internet forum, particularly where Leo's one main offering has been a single $250 dollar course and nothing else, is extremely chill compared to so many spiritual groups. Moreover, arguments and internet narcissism without any consequences are dramatically different than everything I just listed out and arguments and internet narcissism are not mind control. Being very clear on these mind control mechanisms is incredibly important to be clear on, for your own safety. Being able to spot them from a mile away when encountering a real cult leader could make or break someone's whole path. I do see your points around the group think, echo-chamber like community Actualized.org can fall into is problematic. This in particular is a really good point. However speaking from my own experience, I feel entirely at peace holding fundamental, core disagreements with Leo, regarding the nature of the spiritual path, where its going, hell even the nature of God. Based on Leo's very standards, if you apply them, have led me out of the group think the community can and does regularly fall into. I feel no need to argue or fight... I had that phase of my relationship with this place, but Im not having my power or life energy extracted because I disagree. And furthermore, by virtue of this being a forum at all I'm allowed to express my views, which is more than could be said about MAPLE. Leo's point about being clear about the distinction between real cults and Actualized.org is actually a matter of safety. There are very specific, precise, and subtle mechanisms real cult leaders weaponize as expressions of mind control that are distinctly absent in Actualized.org, EVEN if or when Actualized.org is expressing echo chamber like qualities or social games of who agrees with Leo. It's truly not the same, and I'm saying that as someone who has had to spent considerable amount of time slowly re-wiring my nervous system after long term exposure to these techniques of mind control Leo lists out in his cult psychology video.

As someone with direct experience, I would agree with Leo here. Actualized.org is not a cult. Here is a list of mind control techniques MAPLE would employ that are distinct and not present from Actualized.org, some obviously because structurally MAPLE is residential vs Actualized.org is online. But this should help you understand what Leo is referring to. Sleep deprivation, this lowers one's cognitive and critical thinking ability High control group dynamics - MAPLE's daily schedule is so overwhelming busy and void of meaningful leasiure time there's little time for independent thought or reflection Relentless Us vs. Them framing - MAPLE creates division of itself with the rest of the world through teachings on how terrible and destructive the world is while offering a new kind of "us" identity as saviors, heros, a kind of "we're the chosen one's to save the world from itself" Emotional Abuse - Regularly the head teacher would use Renzai Zen style outburts of anger or disorienting language Gas Lighting - MAPLE's head teacher had an insanely proficient ability to gas light, divert and control narrative frames, he was an elite level salesman, wordsmith, with an incredibly sharp and fast mind that most people simply do not have the intellectual ability to keep up with Meditation/Chanting - these practices were taught with an orientation of controlling the mind through force and self-domination which functionally meant cutting one's self off from feminine wisdom like intuition, deep listening, openness, creativity One on one interviews with the head teacher - difficult to explain but the eye gazing, the candle, incense, the overall ambience of these interviews were designed to facilitate deep intimacy between teacher and student and from that openness, one's nervous system is incredibly open to subtle forms of suggestion and manipulation. It's not that genuine teachings weren't offered during interviews, but there were also subtle distortions that would add up over time as continued exposure compounded No privacy - there was no real independence or ability to get away from the group for meaningful amounts of time Dress code - very strict dress code Adoption of Buddhist names - it was a regular practice to change one's name to take on a new Buddhist identity Regular instances of public shaming - this very easily can hijack the very primal parts of the mind where survival is linked to group belonging and falling in line with the collective Explicit and regular teachings explicitly around not trusting one's thoughts and feelings - this functionally serves to sever one's self off from inner knowing and inner authority This isn't even a comprehensive list but hopefully serves to create a clear distinction between what Actualized.org is offering vs cults. The biggest reason I don't believe Actualized.org is a cult though is because of how explicitly Leo teaches to take responsibility for one's direct realization, and how much he teaches different frames, techniques, and strategies for cultivating individual personal autonomy and power. Cults are nearly always going to be the other way around; mechanisms will exist to syphon power away from the individual and to the top of the hierarchy. Conversely, it has been my experience Leo is sincerely trying to use his hierarchy as the YouTuber and website moderator to move power from the hierarchy into the individual. This distinct flow of power is why I don't presently consider Actualized.org a cult. Plus again, all of the aforementioned mind control techniques aren't really present here. Leo being good at explaining things =/= mind control techniques.

Per Leo's provided definition - "A cult is a fringe group that uses deliberate mind control techniques to extract money, sex, and power from its user base. A cult is about abusing and exploiting its members in a pyramid like structure." Given this was somehow not clear from my video last summer... The hierarchical extraction across financial, sexual, operational, and spiritual dimensions is demonstrated with exceeding clarity from this testimony. The end result of the mind control techniques MAPLE weaponizes against its guests and members is demonstrated in real time via the allergic reaction/response in the YouTube comment section of my video as well as the different forms of online media MAPLE has been having its members put out recently.

There are certainly clear structural differences and similarities between the two. MAPLE was in person, moved in direct of explicitly wanting to create a new world religion, etc... But there is a core similarity that there was a highly charismatic leader at the center clearly consolidating power over time via manipulation and domination. From what your describing, the seeds of true cult formation were present in that discord server so even if it hadn't fully unfolded into a full blown cult by the standards Leo presented in his videos on cult psychology, given that the seeds were present it seems appropriate to call it a cult, or at the very least a proto-cult. Being able to recognize the seeds as being distinct but inseparable from the end result, in the same way an acorn is distinct but simultaneously inseparable from the oak tree, is incredibly important when it comes to relational attunement and healthy relationship. All that to say, yeah sure, Id feel comfortable calling the discord server a cult. Even if from a purely conceptual and intellectual definition it doesn't check all the boxes, from an energetic and attuned to the non-conceptual unfolding of reality level, it's moving in a cult like direction sufficiently enough to be worth staying away from and referring to as a cult, in my opinion.

This is a really important point actually. MAPLE is absolutely a cult, by all standards. Is is drinking literal death koolaid mass suicide level cult? No. But is it highly sophisticated elite level forms of mind control, manipulation, indoctrination, emotional/spiritual abuse, and clinically narcissistic charismatic leader trying to create a new world religion to save the world with varying degrees of sexual exploitation levels of cult? Yes. Leo accidentally and unintentionally defending MAPLE has actually worked advantageously for them for them - it was mentioned in one of their recent comments as evidence I'm just being a bully. Quote, "Even the cult callout guy on actualized.org calls out this video: "sounds like a dissatisfied customer." He felt blueballed by this video." So... Yeah. BUT LEO... c'mon man! You're supposed to be "the cult callout guy" More precise details of the abuse present at MAPLE are especially clear from the substack post I linked. I should also mention one of the unfortunate qualities of my video was that yes it was somewhat vague, but I also really had no idea how the organization was going to react or respond. The video's primary purpose has essentially served as a kind of lighthouse warning people not to go, as well as make it safer for others to come forward.

I just wanted to update this thread for those who want an amazing case study in cult psychology and an update to the on-going unraveling of the MAPLE situation - There was a four hour disclosure of someone's experience who spent more one on one time with the head teacher than perhaps anyone in the organization's history. It's a profound story and probably the deepest spiritual transmission of a teaching I've personally ever received because of how utterly human it is. 4 hour disclosure audio substack post link Currently the community is in a kind of allergic response, commenting and liking various comments on my video, in a scramble to improve their online reputation. I suspect this is in part because the video has continued to gain traction and because of the four hour disclosure substack, which they can't directly address, as it draws more attention to it. So instead of addressing the disclosure directly, they're now focused on attacking me. My video link A MAPLE member also made a parody video of mine with a nearly identical title and style - a kind of spoof. To not draw more attention to it, I'm not going to bother linking but it's easy to find and quite funny to watch. As well as posted two blog posts about me comparing me to the Buddhist demon mara. The whole thing is rather dramatic and pathetic. Again, sharing this update more so because the MAPLE situation truly is a great case study of these cult dynamics and how dramatically collective movements can turn sour and poisonous. Edit: And also as Leo himself pointed out with his earlier comment about feeling blueballed, the substack goes into much greater detail than my video does. And it's also important to keep in mind even the substack post is only one story and no way comprehensive of everything that's taken place, particularly behind closed doors.

@CARDOZZO Wow these are honestly great. Thanks for the post. 👊

What changes is the spontaneous self-recognition of the nature of reality/mind/awareness/consciousness/God Which then: "changes is your relationship to your thoughts and emotions" "still arise, but you’re no longer automatically identified with them. You’re not building an identity or a story around every feeling." " There’s a natural sense of presence—of being here—without needing to control the mind. You’re still human. You still fall down—but you don’t get lost in it the same way, and you get back up. Life stays ordinary. The circumstances don’t transform. The shift is internal — in how you relate to the voice in your head." Basically everything you mentioned is true, but without the actual "aha" moment of recognizing what's absolutely true, all of what you said can be achieved with metacognition from normal meditation. I'd recommend checking out Peter Ralston's definition of enlightenment.

Right. This passage I'm quoting is a mechanistic description of karma which is why I shared. Setting aside the question of control, karma is generated based on our actions.

This excerpt from a Buddhist sutra comes to mind: "To the extent that there are beings — past and future, passing away and re-arising — all beings are the owner of their actions, heir to their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and have their actions as their arbitrator. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir." - Upajjhatthana Sutta (AN 5.57) In other words, whatever karmic momentum we generate in this life will unfold in the next. The way I see it is that reality is too intelligent, too in balance for our actions not to influence the results of our lives, whether in this current expression or beyond. And furthermore, we see this mechanism of karma playing out all the time in this single life - why would the intelligence of cause and effect, karma, suddenly stop from one life to the next?

@Ziran

Lmao. Nah I'm done with spiritual arguments. Surprised Leo had enough patience not to boot me lol.

@Leo Gura Thank you