Mu_

I’m okay with not knowing if nothing in the way you say could illogically exists does. It’s irrelevant and doesn’t matter to me. If you like to think about it and it’s potential ramifications for you or me, by all means have fun, honestly. Also not that what I’m about to say matters, but your willing supposedly to take a leap of faith in not knowing but how do you know that. Can you equally prove you don’t know or there is a you to not know or know for that matter.

@Someone here Also I think something Leo is pointing to, is that you may be still seeing this "something" in the realm of form or formless being polar options or even individually somethings that are inherently equal. There is neither, and this "something/eternal" your talking about is not in the realm of form or formless. ITs almost indescribableness that is imagining and experiencing its own imaginational capacity.

@decentralized much love to your cat, I was appreciating mine last night and thinking about its eventual death. I understood then perhaps for the first time why we honor our dead, it always seemed strange to me, but its a form of love, to perhaps bury them with what they would of liked to wear or something they would of loved.

Tell them everything, it will be a relief. I'd also suggest you look the nature of subjectivity and difference. You mentioned a ton of things you hate about yourself. Does everyone see the same as you do about yourself? And if not, is what you believe true or what they see true? There is no right answer, but seeing that these things you hate others may love or find interesting, can help shift the energy. Often we forget that our beliefs about ourselves and others are just that, beliefs, not actually objective or really solidly true. When this is seen time and time again, the beliefs may loose their weight and hold and how much lingering there is on them will shorten. Imagine, you met an amazing girl that loved everything about you that you thought was objectively negative or bad? I'd imagine at some point it would either drive you crazy or you may let it in that how you see yourself is not accurate, and that hopefully it would cease.

I would argue that if this supposed "nothing" is or was, then it wouldn't be a "nothing" and if it wasn't, it wouldn't become anything for it is "nothing" and there would be no ability for it to be accessed nor would it be intelligent or have quality of any sort to reveal it was there or become "something". For if it could, it wouldn't be "nothing. So that said, it is the most irrelevant thing even if it theoretically was true. Again to repeat, "something" can be a thing or a no-thing, but wouldn't come from "nothing" or appear magically in "nothing". NOTHING isn't. Nothing becoming something, would imply it was a something to become something, but again if it were a zilch, zero, nada, it wouldn't be and again is irrelevant since it would mean nothing and have no impact on anything, for if it did, it would be a quality which is a something. All said, I think what a lot of Buddhism, non-duality guys and some other major teachings talk about when they use the word "nothing" is the same as the word "something" as its being used here and I believe by @someone here.

Agreed. Its so simple and obvious, yet in the spiritual traditions it seems like "nothing" is believed to be actual, instead of a "something", which isn't to be confused with a "thing" as in a object with separate properties from something else. And your right, it would have to be eternal. In regards to what "nothing" is usually talked about in spiritual circles, it generally is pointing to what you and I are talking about as "something" so its really just a linguistic thing.

Your logical reasoning of how you imagined it may happen may turn out like that or similar, but then again maybe not. For me it seemed to happen in a different way. It was realized that there is only existence which is not a something or a nothing but could be said to include such. It’s never not been the case. Existence never came from somewhere it is all that’s ever been and what’s reading this is it and what’s typing this is it. It could never be wrong or happening incorrectly nor was there ever a moment in which god/reality/existence came out of alignment with itself. There was never a moment in which human or animal was unaligned or away from god/existence for only existence ever was. There has ever been and could only ever be wholeness and complete perfection. Even if it feels uncomfortable, this is included in existence and is not opposite or better than comfort.

Even the notions of selfish and resistence are concepts of a self or doer or so called perceiver. Go out and poll so called enlightened people, at a certain point you'll realize that there is apparant differences. Some will say selfishness disappears, others will not. Some will say bliss remains, some will say bliss comes and goes like anything else. Ask these teachers what they mean by selfishessness, you'll notice here differences, commonalities and what not. You won't find an agreed definition. This is IT, so called selfish, so called good/bad, so called comfortable/uncomfortable. Even in pain/suffering area's, you poll some teachers or random people, and you'll find out one persons pleasure is anothers pain. I like to poke my gums till they bleed sometimes, others find this painful, I do not. Some like really salty, others feel sick from this. Now you could come up with all pains = pains, maybe mine comes from hot water and yours comes from dildo's in a ass (some like this by the way). But you could say my pain = your pain. Maaaaaybe... but you still don't know what my pain is nor your pain is in relation. All interesting things to consider. From my point of view, you really can't nail down ANY-THING, perhaps because there are ultimately no-things, just existence appearing as things and non-things. Also realizing existence doesn't necessarily mean it will eliminate what you call selfish. Hell you could be mother theresa, but another person may find your driving habits or friendship dynamics selfish. This is their experience, but doesn't mean it defines a real thing called objective selfishness.

Ya pretty much, perhaps with a few caviets that seem to come from different individuals, flavors if you will, but all intrinsically the same stuff.

You want to know what Truth-realization looks like. Go look in a mirror. Go outside and look around. Its never not happening. If your waiting to be able to sit in peace while a fire burns you to a crisp and a 10 foot dildo is up your ass, your only going to be left with a melted dildo. Don't wait that long

The funny thing is though at at least from my highest realization, is there is no difference in being happy from a belief in the actual as you say, and knowing it through direct experience. The happiness is theoretically the same but not always, and the supposed separate self that is happy as a result of this true belief, is ultimately the same as one who has seen through this supposed separate self and theoretically both could lead to contentment. There's no guarantee with this stuff. Its almost fucking laughable, god damn fucking hilarous, especially being one of those that put in supposedly so much work to see this. Most serious and respected teachers however I think would have some disagreance with this.

Ya pretty much. However, it isn't "just experience", THIS is it.........

I can relate to this chain of events you've expressed in this thread, its still something in my karma that goes through this bodily system and its not easy sometimes, but its just gonna do what its gonna do, like a drug pulsing through the veins and no way to stop what it feels and seems like. However notice that without trying or thinking or wanting anything about the moment the arising of that moment just happens. This you that seems so real and failed and tried is just part of this passing moment and has no ultimate reality. Is this you that failed really YOU? Or is it the universe expressing and being just that in that moment. If you don't connect with this, then try below. When was the last time you felt pretty good and grounded? Perhaps connect with what that was like and dont be so hard on yourself. Try to find small ways just to feel pleasant, don't let your emotions and mind ramp up around this subject thats pissing you off and making you feel so much like you wasted so much time and its all meaningless. Let it be uncomfortable as well, don't fight it, but don't propogate it. Its true on some level you seem to know its meaningless, so why let this meaningless be meaningfully bothersome to you. if it truely was nothing and not anything, why would it be experessed with frustration and anger? Do you get what I'm meaning??

This kinda a question is a question that makes sense from certain seeming presumptions. One being that there is "someone" who could be anything at all. If that is seen or considered, you may realize the question of selfish or not, does not make sense, since there is no one to be selfish or unselfish. . This is similar to what @Vincent S I think was getting to, by removing a duality line. This kinda aha can also be seen when looking at such notions of what makes anything what it is? Is something a something inherently with properties that are somehow inherently imbued, like God made an apple an apple, or words, or matter, or energy or all or neither. Or is it something only by it given an opinion by a supposed "someone/something" that calls what they sense "apples, names, matter, energy". Now of course, many critical thinkers can quickly see that if it comes from a someone/something then its not inherent, and thus what ever is being referred to as a "real thing" itself is just opinion perhaps from ones senses. But if you then say ok, no this real something is inherent, then the hard question to tackle and prove is by who or what, and of course you have lots of people with "gods/or opinions" of what god thinks or made a particular something as or what makes this good and that bad, or this selfish and that unselfish (this also brings up the question, if god said its so, and it seems also gave other someone/somebodies the ability to also do the same, which is correct, is gods opinion the correct one?) But of course if your honest, or atleast feel so, the question that may arise is, how do I solve this..... Which of course if your clever, you may realize that this loop is unsolvable, since from your vantage point you don't know if there is a God to define inherent actuality, nor do you know if reality comes from senses or opinions. maybe as your reading this, you don't even know if there is anyone making up questions or not, or if its just all happening like movie running and part of that running is experiencing it...... Again what makes anything anything?

amen. Im just amazed sometimes that I even wake up some days, that somehow eyelids seem to shut, then something called a dream, and then a waking up and a still functioning organism that can stand, remember names, feel anything, amazed that from one moment to the seeming next, there is a sense of anything, seemingly consistent, sometimes random, non of it adding up or needing to add up, but then it somehow seems to and even makes sense.... what ever sense is, lol. And at others, its just laughably stupid, aggravating and then amazing again somehow....

@aetheroar If all thoughts and desires have subsided, then what is this question called god and wondering where it is? I've found when it is let go, then within this unknown that, this curious wondering about god, finds you. When you want to wake up to yourself, IT WILL, and the adventure will seem like the current you finds god and learns that it is YOU.

Ya I agree with the advice given so far, just let such questions go for now, and let life unfold. In time the questions still lingering may or may not be answered, or may become irrelevant, either way, your not missing out. Right now is always eternal and total, it could never not be. Maybe this short video can both energetically point to such and logically make a understandble connection....

What kind of question is this, lol..... as a a guy with a moderator hat on, can you elaborate on why your asking this....It seems so left field, its hilarious. Its like if I told you I'm a master swimmer, and you asked if anal the night before, helps me perform better during race day.

no, I'm just asking you a direct question on what you mean.....

Whats being referenced here? Stuff that is actually nothing? or, Something called nothing that is everything?

Ya mystery is a good word for this stuff, its an element that I feel is often lacking in spiritual inquiry and understanding. You may find value in this video, it points to a lot of what I'm talking about and what I think your wondering about. I also think since you've had a lot of experience in these matters, the video may offer some subtlety you may appreciate.

From my experience with this stuff, at a certain point it becomes impossible and irrelevant to make distinctions, since none of them were ever there in a sense, and still aren't, lol. But to see this, I'm not sure I could describe, nor could it be described, but i'll try none the less for fun. The ability to make a distinction insinuates a someone there making distinctions of this or that, jahna this jahna that. However this supposed character is under no direct control, nor an accurate determiner of any such matters, and to see this, is to see the inability to know something (this understanding can be gotten in many apparent ways, and logical connections, but none the less, it will eventually be seen that "......". It can be a real bummer experience, because this sense of self/Self that felt it knew stuff and knew things, can become real depressed and bummed to realize it could never know and never knew anything, and what it felt like it knew, was just essentially "....." This can happen pleasantly, or what feels like a long drawn out fight of self-independence. This self will argue that it knows, since its thinking and feeling it knows, however the only real truth if inquired into this idea is that there is only something happening, not necessarily the narrative this self voice believes. self experience, voice, thought, feeling, sense, experiences, spirituality, "god word", jahna's, meditation, enlightenment, only prove existence; the labels themselves aren't actually there or connected to what they feel and seem to. The problem with language and typing is generally it comes across that each of these words "experience", "voice", "thought", "feeling", "sense", "god", "enlightenment", are actually things, or phenomena or non-states or non-selfs, that are objectively and independently real, but there really isnt such, the overall happening is literally "....mystery....", and yet intuitively an understanding of such comes and goes.....

I don't know if any of us are going to match exactly want with our bodies or lifes, exactly, its just the way it is, we won't get everything we want. And understanding this, can help. Oh well, my face will always look this, my dick will always be this size, discomfort of some sort will always be somewhere in experience, or eventually. Even the voice in your head that hears this and goes, oh man that sucks, will probably always be there as well..... but hopefully you can let go into something just a little deeper that is there while and when all this is happening, that is unconcerned about such matters and at peace or atleast closer to it then a complaint And like a muscle, the more you can drop into that and come back to that, it becomes rewired or just natural, or grows (all useful metaphors).

Cravings and discomfort of various sorts are probably going to be around in some form for the rest of life. So that said, how do you want to relate to a normal part of life. Fight, anger, frustration, victimization, fear? Or maybe something more positive and relaxed? Worth looking into....

Was it fatalisticly determined that such a body/mind/machine would learn about this so called proof and information that the body/mind/neurons are fixed and cant change and as a result would then become depressed about the information? Not all body/mind/neuron machines that learn about this information get depressed about it, some can feel more relaxed and at ease that there is no control so to say. Is it possible in this moment now, that you can possibly see that your reacting to this information in your own unique way, and that possibly you can also see that if there is no control, then its equally possible everything could become amazing in any second and all idea's of the problems that are thought of as problems and issues that are thought of as stressful, and experiences that are not felt as good or enjoyable all could become something positive and new?