Mu_

@SOUL "Contemplate your own experience, couldn't it be said that the deepest and clearest insights come from those moments when the clarity of the unattached awareness is perceiving reality without the veil of self identity obscuring it? How can we have genuine and clear insight with the conditioned self identity filtering our perception? So it seems that attachment doesn't lead to insight but it is liberation, unattached perception, that leads to insight." Definitely moments where that happened. But also ones in which there was confusion happening simultaneously from what I believe your referring to as the self identity. Waking up isn't bound to any particular set of circumstances, emotional, though, feeling of "I" or its cessation, bliss happening, calm happening, love happening, oneness feeling. These all can be metaphorical pointers to the remembrance and understanding of what you are.

@SOUL Ya I may have not seen that you touched upon multiple means of enlightenment, if I recall you were stressing the importance of the whole point of liberation being the actual freeing from suffering. I think your awakening experience you shared is great and the insight you had was powerful, that the path itself can be a distraction. I even made a video on that. However and I go back and forth on this, the path/path/religion may serve up to a point to where that recognition is useful. Because honestly if you like cutting away all the bullshit and unnecessities of waking up, even the idea that there is existential yearning that cuts away peace and contentment can be a barrier or prevention. One can still get caught up in the seeking of finding peace and contentment. Realization is not that.

I loled, at "be closed, I dont give a shit, I just want you to get you." This is the first I've heard of this guy.

@Viking Happy for you man, honestly. My wife deals with the same thing, I've dealt with it, its very human. It may keep coming back energetically now that you've realized this, but don't let that mean you don't understand whats going on and let it prevent you. It can help to have some positive affirmations at this time like, when your feeling this way again, you go oh ya, thats the old habit and belief, I'm much better then that, I'm gonna stick with this new thing I'm doing and see what comes about a little longer. Don't let old habits/beliefs hold you down, because like I'm saying they will most likely come back and fight for your attention, dont fight them with struggle, just understand its old/though/emotional energy and you are bigger than that, and continue forward with strength in that conviction (meditation is good to here because hopefully it can ground you in a place in which you can see these thoughts/energys of lack of self of steam for what they are, and not be swept into the conviction they are true).

The biggest obstacle for most people in achieving spiritual freedom is the motherfucking bouncer at the door. Everytime you read a new perspective on how to change something about yourself, or get a new understanding of what the bigger picture looks like, this bouncer either goes nope, can't come in, or yep I know this, or sometimes this guy tries to imitate verbatim what was said and misses the point all together. It's about understanding something and letting it go and then letting the remainder of what takes place in the dropping after understanding that is freedom. Its about letting organic maturation take place in the honesty of you realizing you dont know nearly as much as you assume you do. Now how do you deal with this bouncer, well thats the million dollar question, but hopefully just reading this brings this motherfucker into the limelight. At that point then hopefully something in you will go, oh, ah ya, fuck, ok theres more going on then I realized. Hopefully one can ride this humility organically maturing so that the bouncer loses its grip.

Thats one type of inquiry but then theres also a equally if not more valuable is questioning into why you do what you do. Like why do I always freak out when I make a mistake, or why am I always trying to be right, or why do I think I'm a looser. Important here is to be completely honest and then ask yourself do I need to remain this way or keep believing this or is this serving me well and if not what can I do differently. Psychoanalysis of sorts. However once you've come to the bottom of something a few times and worked through it via releasing the emotions associated, understood why theres the trauma, the energy still may surface and pull your attention. Its important at that point to remain focused on the changes you said you were going to make in relation to these issues and not waste your time focusing on the issue itself anymore, because at this point old issues that your letting go will beg for attention and sometimes magnify temporarily craving the old attention you gave it when you just aced out of it in the past.

Thats such a broad question. Can you narrow it down? But the best overall thing that fits most situations in stay open and on the calmer side.

Yes, thats another way of putting it.

Good discussion, but thought I'd just chim in with on thing. Many awakened teachers from different traditions and even within the Buddhist tradition talk about awakening in different ways. For example you seem to have a strong opinion that liberation is the end of suffering, which I've heard as the end of craving, but not the same as actual discomfort, sadness, pain, struggle, frustration, pretty much the span of the human state. Suzuki Roshi said its like normal everyday life but about 1 inch off the ground. He aludes to there being more energy and warmth of heart. I believe some Hindu religions point to state of awakening that are like BOOM constant bliss, ectasy and and direct connection with the consciousness of life itself in which you understand all information, can fly, make gold appear. Neo-Advita I believe is seeing the radical truth that Self is never not the case and no need for the cultivation of the human being. One can do what ever they want and its all the play of Self. Your an asshole, you can stay an asshole and being free because thats what is the case. Bliss may come and go, love may come and go, you may hate, you may suffer, but your hands have been freed from believing you are the doer. The list goes on and on.... This is why I've never said I'm enlightened expect in a recent post in which someone asked if there were any others on the forum, but I tried to put clear indicators of what that meant, but dont think I did a good job. There's definately something to this spiritual/seeking/enlightening/awakening thing but where you draw a line and define what makes someone or knowing in ones self what enlightened is, is slightly difficult, because there are no objective standards. I guess for me its knowing without a shred of doubt what you are and the craving to seek has seized. Its almost kinda funny because one could describe it as almost where you started. someone would ask you who you are and you would know without a shred of doubt that your one with Self, and they would ask well how do you know, and the best answer you could honestly give is, well its obvious what are you talking about, just like you would when you had no idea that you were anything other then just a guy who was born with no connection to Self, it would just be obviously so to you. The coming and going of expansive states of consciousness come and go, bliss and love would come and go, struggles and challenges with normal every day life will continue to happen, inifinity and explosion into area's that are mysterious come and go, new insights into human/scientific functioning and capacity continue to form, the body will still decay, Alzheimers may still happen, a heart attack could be around the corner, but a steadiness, equanimity, non-clinging and understanding remains.

Hi Mujtaba, It sounds like you've had some radical realizations, ones I would classify in the Absolute level of life. However what your dealing with is just as important but what some would call on the human level, which honestly gets a lot of flack or discarded in spiritual circles sometimes. I think your only going to learn some of these human lessons just by growing up and living and experimenting. Its different for everyone, but use your experience as your guide. I think its safe to say your just lonely and making an effort to form friendships/relationships is your next spiritual lesson. Its gonna challenge you and be a opportunity for you to learn about the world, humans and yourself, but also be a great opportunity.

Something that I've observed a number of times within this forum that is a common issue from what I've gathered along my journey and through other spiritual teachers is some misconceptions seekers learn/misinterpret on the spiritual journey. Thought and thinking in of themselves hold no bearing on suffering or not, or are inherently a barrier to waking up. Its the compulsion, the believing of scenarios of stress/fear/hate/worry/shame/guilt etc..., the habit of this and the type of thoughts we have of ourselves, is what CAN cause suffering. (again a important capitilization, because its not always the case and is not to be learned as a rule or create a new mode of functioning for you to try and emulate enlightenment, or right functioning, or supposed to be this way type of behavior). But to demonize the activity of thinking itself and the thought process is also to get lost in another form of bondage and suffering, one in which "You" are trying to avoid thoughts, feelings, beliefs, or re-write them in yourself, or think they aren't there, or believe that your not thinking them, and that keeps your eyes off of knowing yourself and just living. Thinking, planning and the arisal of thoughts that happen during this process and just on their own (like a dripping facet, that is of no control of our own) is normal and is apart of being human, is not taking "You" away or create some sort of barrier preventing something (another subtle belief within seeker circles that keeps the vigilant/sincere seeker confused and frustrated when such normal functioning is present) This understanding can also verbatim be applied to the emotional experience. Seekers again form beliefs that emotions of all sorts are inherent distractions from attaining awakening or inherently create a barrier of some sort or take away awareness from being free (and many more ideas, insert your own). Again emotions are just that, emotions, and most often together with beliefs about them. What "You" ultimately are is never not here and no emotion or thought or belief is a prevention, problem or obstacle to living freely right now. Even the experience of "You" believing you dont know who you are is just that, a belief, its not a inherent problem, idea that needs to be changed, moved, reacted to, something to get frustrated over, its just "You" as you are right then, or right now as you read this. Hope that helps.

So if I understand you right, your saying that when you stop wanting to avoid discomfort this slows down the movement of thought. That make sense to me, since resisting/avoiding is done through thought and emotion. The less of one the less of the other. However my sense of you from reading your posts and this may be wrong, is that you sometimes have some idea's of thought and thinking, that see them negatively in some way. Like you believe that less of them is closer to awakening. Am I correct in this observation? Because I was going to make a post about the false idea of this notion, since its a common spiritual inference that I've read about and seen people get caught up in and deal dealt with in myself. Thought and thinking in of themselves hold no bearing on suffering or not, or are inherently a barrier to waking up. Its the compulsion, the believing of scenarios of stress/fear/hate/worry/shame/guilt etc..., the habit of this and the type of thoughts we have of ourselves, is what CAN cause suffering. (again a important capitilization, because its not always the case and is not to be learned as a rule or create a new mode of functioning for you to try and emulate enlightenment, or right functioning, or supposed to be this way type of behavior). But to demonize the activity of thinking itself and the thought process is also to get lost in another form of bondage and suffering, one in which "You" are trying to avoid thoughts, feelings, beliefs, or re-write them in yourself, or think they aren't there, or believe that your not thinking them, and that keeps your eyes off of knowing yourself and just living. Thinking, planning and the arisal of thoughts that happen during this process and just on their own (like a dripping facet, that is of no control of our own) is normal and is apart of being human, is not taking "You" away or create some sort of barrier preventing something (another subtle belief within seeker circles that keeps the vigilant/sincere seeker confused and frustrated when such normal functioning is present)

I would even go as far to say, its not a intentional mechanic, its happening, and it sometimes feels like there is control of doing it or the belief of having part in it, but ultimately it is just happening.

Oh I'm with you. Non-experience is a metaphor, not literal, on your end. However since we are all putting ourselves out there, And this is to you Jack, at what point do "you" actually know that your experience is not influenced by thought. What objectivity has proven to you that your experience is clear of thought/divided/limited perception? Do you just believe it in the moment, make no further assumption at this point, see some conveyor belt going by that you then can stamp as clear of thought influence, clear of limited perception, etc....

Something happening/Something being/something is both a mental knowing and a part of the Self. What did you just describe to me if nothing is LITERALLY happening. Nothing happening is a void in which NOTHING is happening zero, abscense, but since Self is ALL, there is no abscense, there is no LITERAL nothing.

So then non-experience is a type/sub set of experience? Because right now the use of non-experience is like saying a dog speaks spanish.

@winterknight Also when I use the word knowledge/understanding Im referring to a knowing. Like if asked you is something happening, it would be obvious that something is happening. You may call this something, Self, and I would agree, or not, but either way there is knowing of some sort that something is happening.

Hmm we may have to leave it at that, because to me that sounds like one of the many infinite varieties/vantage points of Self that are always taking place, one being you and one being me (which are not different and yet are). What ever your point to though sounds nice, but again how can the noticing of something/or acknowledgement of something that you obviously describee as continuous with no pause, yet isn't an experience. Are we in semantic criss cross? My definition of experience is fairly straightforward here. If its noticed, its experience, if its dust mite biting you behind your ear, but you dont notice it, its not experienced. Its taking place, but its not your experience. So what are you saying?

Well technically there are no seekers that are not breathing or have no heartbeat. ok so what your saying is, understanding and knowledge that remain, not a tactile experience of oneness, expansion, or void/emptiness (these come and go). Because for so long in the past I and I think many current seekers believe that the later is what is to be found and cultivated through practice and is held onto as attainments thinking that this is what it means to wake up and by holding or creating more of these they are more enlightened. I'd have to go over Ramana and advita again, but was this what they were always trying to point to?

There are many things that don't come and go, one being experiencing itself, another is heartbeat, another is breath (speaking from the point of view of the un-awakened Self). But experiencing itself is not ultimate truth, its not the self knowledge of Self. Neither is the heartbeat or the breath. Again it seems like your trying to point to something that is experienced after a certain point called enlightenment, even though from my experience, experiences leads to awakening, but after that there isn't anything there that continues to prove ultimate truth is happening, other then one just knows who they are.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by true "I" becomes obvious? It sounds like your referring to a phenomenon/experience is arising in consciousness. From my experience, a unshakable conviction and self knowledge, not a phenomenon of sight/experience that convinces is what took place, almost like Self memory returned, memories of before being, seeing before born and then a remembrance like I just found some keys I had forgotten I placed somewhere and now found, remain.

No, poof, Mikael remembers who Mikael is, like find keys you forgot you lost. Mikael embrasses his limited history with tremendous love, understands the present moment and is not afraid of the future. Born and unborn, knowing all as Self and self as Self. Laughing at the hilarity of it all, while not brushing any of it off as unimportant.

Paul Hedderman teaches in the Bay Area pretty much every week. Look him up, he's legit, non-dual teacher. funny as shit sometimes, has a guy at the bar vibe and has a fresh+old school take on things.

More importantly whats aware of this I?

Can you elaborate on your enlightenment experiences, like you were going to teach me something. Really from your heart, not from a book or a translation of what you thought it meant, just what really touched you. That way I can get a sense of what you deeply know or have touched upon.