Mu_

What a sweet soul. I'll have to watch more of him.

".................."

@VeganAwake So you were military at one point, thats pretty cool? Ya I was just wondering when I asked before, because some people just like quote a lot of stuff as though they are arguing for what the scripture says. And I agree, cup empty is super important...... even when you understand and discover whats happening.

@VeganAwake Are you sighting scripture or is this something you've come to understand? And what cares so much about nothing that it continues to argue and prove something, which you say isn't knowable by someone?

Cool. Something I'm still learning and seeing is that coming back to gratefulness day to day is its own spiritual practice and really can rewire this tendency to look at life from what is not right or even what can still improve. At least for me, I was such in a cycle of whats not right or should be another way or could be better, and this was always a separation from being grateful and enjoying just whats happening.

Sounds like your doing fine through exploring. There is no right way to do it and something that Leo has pointed to is you never know if the person you are taking advice knows what they are talking about, you just have to explore and find out. Life isn't something where there are a lot of guarantee's, and this can scare a lot of people, it doesn't really mean its unsafe, it just means anything can happen

You sound like me at one point, and in retrospection its kinda funny. Its like man I got a great life, house mansion, money, girls, sex, but its just as good as I had it before, and this "can" be a trap if you keep mulling on it, rather then letting the mind go and just "being" so to say. I spent probably 10-15 years unconsciously not happy because my normal state just wasn't good enough in comparison to those high as fuck magnificent states your talking about here. There was a slight attitude or seeking you might call it that just couldn't be happy with the overall improvement or just the normal every day rawness of every day life moment to moment, and instead was always comparing to how it was not as good as those other great heights I've had before. Just something to be mindful of or inquire about and not get stuck in......

@VeganAwake And again to reiterate, this isnt a your wrong, he's right thing, again what your sharing is 100% true and in my opinion is not a aspect that a lot of people on this forum get, even though they claim they do, and in the same way, there is aspects that are 100% that you haven't seen either, and me to. This doesn't mean anything honestly, theres no such thing called awakened or enlightened, these are just terms created out of "..." that appear to make for an experience that there's levels and at one level awakening happens and before that it doesn't. And no its not illusion either.....

Hmm I'm not sure I'd phrase my definition that way. There really isn't a definition that fits honestly, just metaphors or pointers. But if thats how you see what I'm saying, perhaps this language would help, its not a "something" that is conscious of whats Happening. Its closer to a Happening or a Now with a property of experience that entails awareness of stuff seeming to happen, but this experience and stuff is made of itself creating, like a feeling of being in a room, or a quality of experience humans could relate to as water, or qualities and variances of space or time, but none of it has inherent nature of its own accord again, since its all One happening. And that One happening/no-self happening can recognize this and use the words "oh this is me, its all me, or not say it in that way and say it in a equally true way like your saying, that it doesn't happen to anyone, because its not a someone or a something". And just to clarify it doesn't mean either of the two examples above came from a choice, but are what happens as this mystery does.....and always has.

No one left and One are the same thing, perhaps this is a symantics difference or a aspect not understood..... Is there a chance both of your labels for what Awakening is are not broad enough?

And theres a recognition that its happening as YOU, and a recognition of YOU=Love=Only that and more...... lol. Its all good man, nothings ever missed or out of place, theres no higher or lower understandings or people that aren't understanding. people not understanding = "...." exactly as that expression.

I get what your saying, I'm pretty sure I understand the power of an illusion. But I'm talking to you with where your at, not with someone who is so called oblivious to what you call is a body mind believing an illusion that separates them from realizing the backpack has always been full. Sure this could be said and/or points to a concept/experience that could be put into those words, but just like there is that concept of a backpack always been full, there's a realizing what the "whole person/backpack/always full" IS in degree's of depth you could say. And understanding those degrees of depth can happen in words, metaphors, direct knowing awaking, conversations like this. There's degrees of seeing you can't fully understand anything, and yet you still understand..... there's just happening lessons and understandings that happen to No-One, there's being a process of feeling like a particular Someone that knows its not more then a expression of ".......", but enjoys and embarrasses just being human simply.... There's all sorts of lessons/experiences understandings that unfold as this mysterious "....." perhaps the easiest way to say it is "....."=YOU/ME/NOTHING/EVERYTHING/INFINITY and its not a seperate ego/identity thing claiming something, its "....." what happens as "......."

Ok lets keep playing and having fun. What concept is ever100% the Dream? If there is nothing but ...... then there is no concepts and there is no Dreams... I mean what is happening now but only "......". Isn't by your own position, your doing what your saying is concepts. The whole separate "self" illusion thing that is awakened from is a concept. But i understand what your pointing to though this and this expression your giving can seem to lead to awaking from something that never existed, the gate-less game. In this same way the words, symbols, meanings, pointing to that I was hoping for you to look into when I mentioned your "ego" is the same thing, its pointing to additional aspects of ........ that are also just as true as the analogy your giving in waking up from a "self" illusion sense. Does that make sense? "See the sense of self cannot conceive of its own unreality so it will adopt whatever concept it can to keep itself alive." Is another example of the above, its not true ultimately, but it does point to something and that something is ....... or can appear to lead to awakening to ......... BUT again, there is and always ......... and so called illusion not awake person is ............... lol so much "........................................................................................"

sorry you lost me I thought we were talking about solipsism and your opinions on it, at least that was the question I asked you for clarification on. And ya I don't recall why we were having this original conversation, I got the sense at the beginning you were trying to understand something that couldnt be proved, but if I know just tell you.... either way, it was fun chatting.

Why are you attempting to describe more illusion, when there is no illusion to begin with to describe illusion? Was there ever a time in which there was a experience of a finite individual within a body that believes it can become aware of something called higher consciousness? Or was just god/happening/infinite taking place? Notice how this description is just that, not a inherently true thing that happens or happened. Its just you man, just happening, just god, just this...... I see more in you and you are able to see more of you then you let in because you still believe there is no you to get anything, and its TRUE while also being TRUE that you are all that is and learning more about YOU forever....paradoxical it seems but within the Actuality of You that IS, it simultaneously happens...... There are no words, there is no knowledge, there is no understanding, its the unfolding and happening of YOU. Perhaps in a way that you would phrase this to someone else "There is a "part/ego" of YOU that doesn't feel comfortable with being a someone, and more comfortable with being a "no-one" happening. This "part" is an energy in YOU that doesn't rest but fights notions and idea's that see's it as other, rather then included, like idea's that don't match your wording and understanding of reality. Just because this may be happening, doesn't mean what you understand is not valid either because this energy is happening, its just something to notice embrace, let happen, let dissolve and be replaced with wholeness and love. Hopefully you didn't find this harsh. This happens in me to and is a lesson i keep learning from as well, the lesson of Love and Sameness always.

@Someone here So let me get something clear so I'm better understanding of your position. Do you believe Solipsism or do you just think its a good position that is hard to refute or can't be refuted, but dont believe it yourself? Either way, in my opinion, Solipsism's position that you can't prove you are a self - aware human being or not a robot or not a character in your dream is unprovable, I dont agree with. I may not know how to prove it, but it doesn't mean its not able to be done. But again I'd imagine if it were, there could be distinctions, definitions, classifications made and there would be agreance of what is and is not allowed to be accepted as evidence or proof, lol. Or perhaps you'd just find out like any kind of new understanding just happens at some point. That said, I believe I know what you are, but I can't prove it like a semantic/philosophical/or scientific proof trys to do on a paper with variables or reasons or observations. Again, what are you trying to understand in all this? I've lost track....

Ya they seem like completely different messages and not similar in any way, but the one that believes it can become aware of infinite consciousness is no more less real than anything else, in fact is everything else because there is nothing that is not everything...... There is no higher states and there is no Maya.

I mean if I believed the assumptions inherent in the position, yes I could see it may be convincing. However, the position takes a few things as proven givens to begin with. 1. The first one is there is a external and an internal to begin with. Sure if there is a division made and agreed on, you could maybe agree that said area is internal in relational to a external other area. But even my explanation has some givens unquestioned and they will be stated next. 2. Its assumed there are individuals making distinctions to begin with in this theory/position. For example An unfolding of something, doesn't have to have a cause, reason or choice made in its start. Example, if said happening/unfolding unfolds into more in more phenomenon eventually reaching a point of say a big bang in which creates a space/time happening that births scientific principles and rules, galaxies, planets and eventually you and I's which walk talk and speak and believe self inherentnace, but are still being orchestrated from/as the original uncaused first happening....well then the theory of solipsism is mute. If whats said above is true, then the idea that there are men who have dreams and ask questions of their own volition is mute and to hold onto such notions as though they are real is just holding on to a belief system, which is totally fine.

I believe you and enlightened1 both sharing facets within the same coin, but arguing the coin is only one of those facets. Thats my take on your dialogues over time anyways. It can be REALLY interesting when you see this. Especially when you see that each facet includes and is all the other coin/facets simultaneously.

@Someone here "No lol it is actually impossible. Either your POV or no POV. No such thing as other's POV from your POV unless you access their POV in which case it's gonna become your POV. Tada! Lol " Well whats a POV? And once you've defined it, prove that its objectively true, like actually prove it...... I'm curious how you prove it. "It is YOU who is doing or not doing that. Notice this! " What is this YOU? And why do you assume there is a doing or a not doing of this supposed YOU, what about the unfolding of something? Like when wind happens, branches and leaves rustle, the branch nor the leaves did anything but happen to move from wind. Perhaps better said or in combination with previously said is, unfolding without a cause or a doing. Or and this is a mindfucker, both doing and not doing, what I just said above, neither, and other stuf..... none of which conflict with eachother even though to the normal mind they seem like opposites or can't exist simultaneously. "No don't project any psychological issues on me lol." what I'm about to say may be triggering and offensive, but for the sake of knowledge and investigation, I'll shoot. If you want out, just say so, and leave it be.... What is a psychological issue and What is being projected on "who"? What's taking offense? "Solipsism is actually a very strong epistemological position. Actually it is impossible to refute it." Really? How so, perhaps its good for you to define what you mean by solipsism and prove why this definition is irrefutable. I fully admit that everything I share is refutable, even if I believe it isn't..... and there isn't a provable why to why I believe this or why this was typed.....

@Someone here I kinda agree with what your saying, no view happens outside of the view itself, although its not provable and I'm ok with that, maybe there is, even if it doesn't make sense to me through experience, its not shutdown as impossible. Some views you could say may encompass other views simulatneously, and sure you could argue or not argue that it still means its 1 POV since its happening in a defined space that you put the boundaries on, but again those boundaries may need to be set to make that statement, but again it doesn't mean its absolute and that defined statement falls apart when the boundaries are stretched. Also I'm not certain theres only two possibilities, Your/my/any POV or no POV. There is whats called, just happening, and it doesn't mean there's point of view or not. You could say point of view is a intrinsic nature of whats happening as a universal unfolding able to be defined and articulated in any way possible and doesn't have a inherit meaning or actuality thats objectively defined, it just is and sure any point could made about whats happening, like the statement you made, but as it may become obvious or not, thats just whats happening. Questions happening, why's happen, whats happen, thoughts happen, emotions happen, expression happens, POV happens or doesn't and everything in between. LOL Also, Imprisoned? This may be something interesting to inquire about, since it may reveal some deeper impacts on how you see/believe/understand life/yourself/being. And ya I'll message you if you want.

@Someone here Alright, all good stuff. I've been in your shoes before and it can be a great place to be in. And its a place you can live the rest of life in so to say with out really missing anything so to say, its totally fine and equal to anywhere else However, there's always more to explore and happen for ever and ever, but its not a you must or your missing out kinda thing So is it seems safe to say, you believe that you believe in stuff in certain ways, and do so as a result of external facts brought to you or observed by you internally? While I'm not sure if I can prove to you what Leo, Inliytened1, justfortoday is trying to point to, perhaps I can help open up the possibility. And maybe this analogy will help. Its important if this is something you truely want to understand to be really honestly open. Some how you know what you know now and believe what you know somehow, its pretty self evident to you as you've said. so in this same way, something has shifted in Leo/Inliytened1/justfortoday that has made it pretty self evident that what they are sharing is true and its just known in a way that can't really be said why they know, just like you, but its just evident. Now you may say well I know that I don't know and that it can't be known or only certain things could be possibly be know, but carefully look at how this to is just a thought, just an idea that can't be known either, the belief/statement itself actually cancels itself out. I lived a long time in that same belief as well, always denying what I thought was impossible to know or understand. But upon seeing that this statement I believed was fundamentally true, actually wasn't, a new window opened up that let in some new direct knowing.... Perhaps that window is ready to be opened for you..... Let me know if this makes sense or if you have an questions or opposition to what was shared..... Also if you are interested in looking into this deeper, send me a private message and perhaps we can chat, its honestly easier then long hand typing all this stuff....

Great answers thanks for sharing. Ok lets dig a little deeper if you don't mind.... So there is a unquestionable fact that you are aware and I almost agree to... But What is the "you" part of the awareness, and not just awareness happening? When you say there is one me obviously what do you mean.... A sense of experiencing something, or a "you" that is experiencing something and this you was born at particular date, knows that it makes choices and thinks what it wants to and feels what it wants to? If not, how would you describe this. And why is this "you" you? And not the universe arising? Or a planet birthing people? Is perhaps some of it because you feel like your in a body on the planet and this planet is in the universe? I mean those reasons are very convincing, I agree. (I'm not trying to lead you in a particular way of seeing, just want to know how you see these things, even if its not how I phrased my questions). Also I dont know if you believe in the big bang or not, but if you do, what seperates "you" from the big bang still happening creating the universe moment to moment?

@Kross Seems like you got some good info, but I'll add another thing to open your mind if its helpful. What is 1 of something? An apple lets say. But you know an apple is not just an apple, but made of many many parts, perhaps infinite? Just look into a microscope and wala, theres fibers, various organic matter, space, electrons, protons, and the more you look around and zoom in the more you find and the more is unknown and explainable at this point by humans and perhaps forever. And to be clear this happens with any supposed 1 thing, the more you look into it the more its not 1 thing....... So ask yourself again what are you talking about when you say there is 1 apple, is it an apple or is "something" called a apple that is really just a combination of other stuff that you really can't nail down where or what it is, since it seems from the science view that theres always more to a supposed something. Oh and to make it even more interesting, all the "stuff that is made of other stuff" is moving around all the time..... And yet I imagine while all this is going on right now, there is something in you that thinks its a solid thing that is moving around solid no-moving terrain.

It's not a easy thing to answer honestly, but I don't want to leave you with a cope out feel or avoiding proof. Let me ask you a few things first if you don't mind sharing, perhaps it will get you closer to the answer your asking. You say you don't have a problem with the perspective, but a problem with how do I or anyone know that? 1. Why is that? 2. How do you know anything for that matter and/or what is it to know anything? 3. Why do you assume there is a small you and not a God you?