Mu_

Well said, more of the forum would benefit from letting this in. But not only "minds" before us, but systems that allowed for minds and organisms to be possible.

It sounds like you want a point or a purpose that is fulfilling or is supposed to be meaningful and purposeful. And if this is so, what does that look like to You? There isn't a one size fits all. Life isn't like a defined dictionary in which meaning = 1 and purpose = 2, because not everyone likes the same job, or the same environment or the same food. If your looking for whats supposed to be meaningful or purposeful based on idea's given to you from society, or family, you may not connect with any of them and find yourself wondering why you can't find these things and whats wrong with you and your life. Really dig deep. What do you want? And if you honestly dug and still don't know, well there you go, you don't need to want anything or have a exact desire or purpose, and you know what if you can deeply just accept this, it can feel pretty good, its just spiritual rubbish that you have to find a/your purpose and if you don't you will be unfulfilled. Maybe at a later date something will arise in you out of the mystery called life and you'll have a desire to go help the forests or the whales or something and you'll go and do that. Sometimes periods of life, are doing just what your doing (actually this is always true). I will say it can't hurt to try some new things once or twice a month even if you have no idea if you will like them or not. But at least you'll find out if you do or don't and it could awaken a interest you never knew you had.

@Zak Aside from wether or not you think they get anything out of it. Is your life better or at least influenced you because they were available or out in the world because they took an initiative to put something out there that you learned from? Could you have this conversation if it were not for the support of others teaching you, supporting you with shelter, a system of exchange which allows for the easy transfer and availability of food and work.

@Zak Do you find Leo or Actualized or other spiritual books and teachers useful? Well, theres your answer. Do you find that that these same people give advice that doesn't work for you as well? Well, theres your answer. Have you learned anything or survived in this life without the support or help of others? Well, theres your answer Don't overthink this.

You make some great points and having had these same realizations in myself, and seeing them in others I've worked with or talked to, has changed radically changed the way in which I talk about this stuff. The only point I'd be careful with is the notion of shallow, since it can put a value judgement on Life/Absolute that isn't so.

Lets try to be a little more kind in our responses.

@ivankiss Ya I've done the same thing as well.

I think I get what your trying to say and its got Truth to it, but there's more or other that can be said, not higher not lower, just more ways to expressing "IS". Also a danger with what your saying is it creates an idea of a process or path or steps that must be met to Reality or that someone is incomplete still before this "Enlightenment" Your saying that some word "enlightenment" (which isn't anything but IS) only happens when something called FULL light happens is only true in the sense that everything is true because there is only IS, not because IS only happens when FULL light is reached. What I'm talking about has been said in many different ways, some of which I think your familiar with is the expression; form is emptiness and emptiness is form. Not two, is another, some even go as far to say and I understand why, in saying Not two, Not one, and Not nothing. I may have to elaborate. One God experience so to say is, living a human life with the unquestioned tangible experience that they a separate individual on a real place called material earth. Then somehow they get a tiny taste out of that leading eventually to a giant shift into formless awakening. They could live eons with this new experience so to say, and then one day have another awakening, that the formless was not whats Absolute and that Form and Formless where both or make up the Absolute. Eons go by and they eventually see that Form and Formless aren't two "somethings" that when you add together you form the whole, but that the Whole always IS and the Form and Formless are just words and experiences or expressions of Reality/IS/Whole. Sure sometimes you have to meet particulars on where they are at so to say to help, and perhaps that was your intention, but as a general statement I feel like this may only continue some idea of a duality of there's light and theres not light, or theres real and not real, or theres enlightenment, and then theres being wrong because you don't see whats real.

There is no one right answer to the question. There's infinite ways in which time is felt during awakening "moments", ranging from the experience of the the non-passing of anything to, radically slower then what the minds use to, to super fast with cascading insights like a life flashing before someones eyes.

Where to start. There's the "doing" approach and the "not doing" approach. To make it simple, I'll try and give a brief overview of the "doing" approach. Trauma "can" take a long time to heal, and its better to understand this instead of thinking it will be quick and easy, which for some its easier and often the first hurdle of looking into the dark basement which is the scariest part. This doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted because it sounds like long term work, which it can feel like at times, sometimes right out of the gate which is why some people never attempt, the fear is to overwhelming or anger to strong. However if you go in with the attitude its not going to kill me, it just may suck at first, and at various times during the process, there's LOTS of rewards so to say. For starters it can feel great to overcome something, even if only in degree's at first, because in those degree's you may start to feel better, or less overwhelmed in life situations that would of made you clam up, run away, rage in anger, abuse drugs or alchohol with, hold a job that you never could, forgive someone or something that hurt you and find love or well being replaced. Just doing this with one issue you may find yourself inspired or REALLY inspired and feel like you can overcome anything. This may lead to another thing your willing to try and overcome, which again can fuel the degree of effectiveness you have in overcoming trauma's and limitations in general. Its possible to eventually reach levels of fearlessness you never thought possible and be able to so to say do anything you dream of in which your the only limitation. Now there is a "not doing" path as well, but I'd say go with the above until you feel a sense of stability or confidence in yourself.

@Gesundheit I’m not arguing for a definition of god being Love. I’ve said a few times it’s just a word and to encourage others to look into their own beliefs on what Love is to them. Because it’s a triggery word and not a great one sometimes I’ve also encouraged looking into ones frustration with the fact that suffering happens and the frustration one may have towards God or life because suffering happens to them. Look over what I’ve said investigate maybe learn something, or maybe put the effort in and learn nothing, there’s no guarantees in effort and learning. Thats what this forum is about or is trying to be.

Ya its helped me a lot. I use to listen to it a few times a week. I found chillstep mixes with 432hz great, or Alan Watts chillstep remixes with 432 great. This was one of my favorite. Theres others, like this.

Ok, and its not perfect objectively? Or to you?

Ya I agree, theres suffering, now what? And what does it mean that theres suffering?

Awesome keep going. ?

Ok lets say you some how prove there's suffering. Does it exist in all perspectives? Or only in some, and does this matter. Ok lets say it does. Now what? How much is there? 80% pleasant 20% suffering or discomfort? 50/50, 60% suffering/ 40% pleasant? Lets say its 60% suffering and 40% pleasant. What does that mean? Lifes almost a net positive? And to who? To everyone? What does it matter? Who is it mattering to? What if I'm really happy with those percentages and happy overall because of it. Am I out of alignment with the mathematical percentages of Truth? Or should I feel 10% sufferingish on a daily basis overall because thats the mathematical Truth difference of what life is on average. See what I'm vaguely pointing to? I don't know you that much, but the impression I'm getting is that you may take suffering very personally and that you may also suffer more then you need to because suffering is something that happens sometimes out there to supposedly other things and this bothers you. This is something that has been a very hard one for me as well, and it took years for me to finally get to a place where it was ok to understand life involves suffering sometimes and it doesnt make life or god or living a horrible event.

Well in truth there are no accurate words. But there is a generally a direction we can most the time follow when someone says something, and yes sometimes not. We can then go deeper into clarification and hopefully get closer, but theres an element of never really knowing for sure though and thats its own lesson. You ever try and accurately describe what your seeing, or feeling or smelling, or tasting? Do the words ever really get close to the experience? But ya love, hmmm..... What is love to you?

Ya the love word trips a lot of people up since everyone has their own belief of what it means. Some have romantic expectations with love, some have the belief they should get anything they want, others feel like there should be no uncomfortability in a loving relationship.

Ok lets say you some how prove there's suffering. Does it exist in all perspectives? Or only in some, and does this matter. Ok lets say it does. Now what? How much is there? 80% pleasant 20% suffering or discomfort? 50/50, 60% suffering/ 40% pleasant? Lets say its 60% suffering and 40% pleasant. What does that mean? Lifes almost a net positive? And to who? To everyone? What does it matter? Who is it mattering to? What if I'm really happy with those percentages and happy overall because of it. Am I out of alignment with the mathematical percentages of Truth? Or should I feel 10% sufferingish on a daily basis overall because thats the mathematical Truth difference of what life is on average. See what I'm vaguely pointing to? I don't know you that much, but the impression I'm getting is that you may take suffering very personally and that you may also suffer more then you need to because suffering is something that happens sometimes out there to supposedly other things and this bothers you. This is something that has been a very hard one for me as well, and it took years for me to finally get to a place where it was ok to understand life involves suffering sometimes and it doesnt make life or god or living a horrible event.

I'm not sure you realized, but you made a thread a few weeks ago in which people responded, but you didnt say anything in response. Maybe go back and see the help that was offered.

Sounds like the right track, the more you do it, the easier it gets and often leads to a deeper understanding a better solutions so to say.

@Hansu Ya sounds like a lack of self love. Learn to drop shaming and regretting yourself. Its less obvious that your doing then say, self hating and blaming but saying stuff like, man I'm stupid for doing this, or I can't believe I did this, or Im ashamed for doing this and feeling sorry for yourself after, is something you can drop when you catch yourself doing it. This is the equivalent to dropping the stick in which you beat yourself with and is a form of self love.

@seeking_brilliance Thats pretty cool man.

Ok try on this VR helmet for a moment. Same exact everything happens to each of these women A women gives birth through a an hour process involving suffering and love. Was it one or the other? Or both? One mind may summarize it as an amazing experience perhaps the best moment of their life. Another mind may see it more quantitatively and say it was 10 mins of agonizing suffering and 50 mins of unbelievable joy, so overall a net benefit making it objectively a good experience. Another may say it was an awe full experience as a whole and would never do it again. A zen mind may say they were one and the same unbroken and you can’t separate the two because they are intertwined as an event Notions of is it this or is it that aren’t so easy to nail down. And this includes the subjective notion you want to claim as a reason why something called enlightenment or Love doesn’t exist. Empty your cup, maybe you’ll find out.

@RedLine also another valuable thing to consider is that despite each perspective having its own view , suffering/love, doesn’t necessarily mean anything about Reality or a possible Creator. Lots of people get bent out of shape and feel horrible about life because suffering exists or even worse that because suffering exists it means that Reality or a Creator is flawed, twisted or evil. These are just idea’s with no real basis other then logic that make sense to them. Again this is not arguing for or proving the good of or existence of Reality, just pointing to assumptions that are held as Truths and cause degrees of suffering. I’m sure you’ve heard this before but there’s pain and then there’s fear, tightening, dreading, anger, frustration and all sorts of added reactions to pain or the possibility of pain happening again and/or again every time that familiar habit you or I have that always seems to cause pain or discomfort. For a lot its the dreaded work day and the all sorts of suffering people have about it. But it’s often not work itself but the ideas around work or a particular boss or person or emotions that come up at work or how work takes you away from what you prefer. More for others it’s a trauma around something and every time that particular thing occurs the pain in relationship to the trauma happens and the person things it’s the thing itself and not the trauma they had anbout the thing. I’m rambling now, but I hope your seeing the direction I’m pointing towards