Mu_

My very partial understanding of hearing both of your guys videos and the difference, while also reflecting off my own awakening is that you two seem to have of awakened, but in reflection and communication of those events in order to describe to a supposed outside world, different words used to describe the story are different. In this difference you see each-other at different places since what you call No-Self, Leo calls God in many ways, and Leo calls No-self something different in many ways, but these stories are in a imaginary plane with imaginary systems and stages, each meaning its own thing to each of you through your own past experiences. All the while, both of you are the expression of the same "..." doing their best to cover "..."

As frank eluded to this can be very subtle. And at the same time it’s ultimately true. Be, what ever that is you.

But is it though. This is something I wanted to chat with you about because as I’ve let go and investigated and questioned and let go of that till “....”. The notion of “...” being a goal or the point or the reason or what “....” is about, it seems almost funny because for so long I and it seems almost all teachers hold onto this notion. Its kinda radical and it’s also not since “...” remains as always aware of itself or not. This one threw me for a loop for almost a year since so much seemed wrapped up in this notion that finding and awakening and awakening others to “...” was the reason or the point of IT all. Wondered if it’s ever arisen for you.

My man Nahm, coming out swing with some truth bombs. Careful, anymore of that and there won't be anyone left to listen. hahahaha

Ya this can be a bitter pill so to speak. Been caught in stuff like this before myself. However, realize this interpretation is yours, and not of what he said. Find interest in this phenomenon, REALLY examine this, look at it from all angles and all possibilities, really be mindfucked by what this means, let go, laugh and smile. If thats to vague, ponder some of these 1. No issue prior to listening to video, but afterwards a new negative emotional state seemed to be felt. 2. Unhappiness seemed to happen between the supposed point of hearing and interpreting Leo's words, maybe? 3. What happened during and between those two points? 4. Are these two points? Or one event? And if event, how far back does "event" go? Forever? 5. Can you just feel happy now? Since maybe what he said was actually very positive, even though it wasn't interpreted that way? 6. Can you just Be happy now even if what he said was not positive (maybe Leo wasn't telling the truth or perhaps was wrong or maybe Leo was just testing ya). 7. Since the number 7 is lucky, you feeling lucky now? Really take your time with these questions, really go into them, no rush, if you are looking for what Leo is pointing to, keep patient and try to have it all done quickly like so much is in this world of instant gratification....

Maybe I should watch the whole video before saying anything more, but that type of goal "to find a new perception and a permanent world shift" is the goal of many types of practices or atleast the goal of the student/teachers hope for the student sometimes.

Loved it, thanks for sharing.

I think you need a dose of some Matt Kahn videos.

Thats really interesting, thanks for sharing. Since I never really fully understood Buddhism and deeply read, I just assumed thats what no-self meant anyways. I think another reason I thought this was because of another saying from vedantic philosophy I believe. Basically its the argument that if there is only a singularity, no distance, no time, no volume, no space, then there is basically no-selfs and thus experience is arising for no-one or no-thing, what could really be said of anything as such, lol perhaps just thoughts of itself, but now im just rambling, hahaha.

I don't think Frank is at all saying what this guy is saying. Find my comment in the OP's video on frank yang, in which he responded to (I go by Into The Unknown on youtube). He explains in further depth what he's trying to say. I feel on some level he's pointing roughly the same thing Leo is in many ways, with less emphasis on You are consciously creating everything and more emphasis on Its arising as everything of no-ones volition or intention (this idea is a very eastern thought idea from what I've learned from Alan Watts, and is one I hold highly as well). Frank seems to have a different idea of development through stages than Leo on some level, but admits that these can be thrown out eventually and aren't holy rules in which all who awaken follow these linear sequences.

Interesting video. I'm not sure how I feel on what he's sharing. I don't know if I've heard of cessation ever described that way, it honestly sounds pointless in a way. Most interpretations of cessation I've heard or read about is a connection so to say to no-time, no-dimension, no identification, no pushing or pulling anything, and as such its generally blissful, and fulfilling in a way that is undescribable. The way he describes it, which I would not know why anyone would want to try to do so since you can just go to sleep or have someone punch you unconscious and still go through what he's saying is cessation. I mean if you learn to appreciate it after it happens, by all means, however you can just appreciate with love and gratitude after waking up from sleep every morning and not dedicate any time toward the type of cessation he is talking about.

You can say a lot about something that isn't real, even books are written on this subject, I prefer to say even less. To each his own

I'm really curious how this video was for some people. I know a lot of you out there are probably putting themselves through unneeded stress and fear thinking they have to die or are trying to box/contain/kill something in their experience they've labeled as Ego.

Ya its in the ballpark, and it also could be said to be like a mirage that appears to be something in particular, but upon finding out more, you find out it was something altogether different then it seemed or was assumed. More importantly how ever you saw it, or it impacted you, it shifted something in you by the sound of what you shared.

@Someone here Well if you don't remember any, then its likely, but not certain, you wont remember this one in the next one....you have first hand proof in this life

Subjective past life experiences.... Do you remember any?

Is it? Ego? You tell me. Would it matter if it was an ego or a smurf or a dodo.... It just seems like something and feels like something, no?. Does it need to be made into anything more. If you don't, what will happen? If so, who told you? Show me the sign post with its name on it and what it means and what is supposed to be done about it.... @The0Self

Lol.

Do you remember any past subjective experiences? No, well then there’s a good chance you won’t again. But who knows. ????

Ya its like that for most, but in time hopefully like being in strong wind, it will just become normal and something just taking place, not a distraction or meaning something about you. This is not a one and done kinda thing that you understand once and it happens... gettoefl gives some good advice on how to approach this.....

mmmm..... okay so even the feeling of a door and its hindrance would be a "seems" in the example I was trying to give. Imagine you were conducting such experiments from within a frozen block in a ocean. You would be pretty certain based upon everything you could tell from the consistency of what a frozen block showed you in your experiments. Door is a feeling and is surely real, because real is whats seen and felt and its not just a thought. This lasted for 1000000000 years. However it was always a frozen block in a ocean with door like "seems" and experiences, that on year 1000000001 years melted. no more ice block stable reality and physics and rules that seemed to indicate what was block/door/space/time/real/unreal/hallow/in/out/top/bottom and how everything worked. This block is now Ocean (and never was not Ocean) with no reminiscent of Block anymore, but for so long it seemed like Block was so consistent and real, but all along it was just Ocean. In this same way Ocean is whats happening, it just seems like a frozen block with all these "seems" and feelings and logical conclusions and reasons to call a door real. In this suspension of conclusions of reality, Ocean may reveal itself, and it may reveal itself while walking into a seeming door as well.... cheers... Disclaimer: Don't use this to walk into doors as though they were not there or run around claiming nothing is real or certain freaking yourself and everyone around you. Enjoy the "seems".

That voice I think your talking about would say and still does sometimes is, nothing is real (in a negative sense), you don't know anything, your not being honest, lifes pointless (in a negative sense), nothing I'm doing means anything (in an negative sense), your going to die, so whats the point of even trying, hate and rage of various sorts, demented thoughts and sexual images sometimes flash in various forms, what do these thoughts mean about me as a feeling and thought happen for moments and sometimes more heavily, my lifes been a waste of time. So all sorts of types of feelings, thoughts and images happen, but its just what it is...... not a big deal, sometimes a little more of a big deal....... but ultimately not a big deal, lol. Self Understanding and Truth seemingly found through meditation, contemplation, life, struggle, joy and unexplainable Mysterious ways, seems to have made a difference, but I wouldn't claim its the only way to see into and through these types of things that weigh on a human soul and existence. I also parenthesized (in a negative sense), because these are not inherently a negative, its just in how its understood and felt, kinda like a friend saying fuck you in a playful way and laughing vrs a stranger saying it to you and feeling hurt.

Ya I've gone down this rabbit hole before as well, its very eye opening and interesting. One caution that I would advice particularly if your interested in Self-Realization, is not to conclude from this notion of how you proof something, that it means Self-Realization or understanding what you are or is Truth, falls within this axiom of what is required to be done to prove and know something. Realization of Self does not fall into a category of requirements needing to be met and proved to be valid and understood. You might find interesting this random piece I just typed up..... (shot in the dark). The human experience a really interesting immersed Virtual Reality program. Its so amazing that a lot of experiences of being human already have a coded experience in which the language, experience and understanding of whats taking place unquestionably feels like a body, on a earth, moving through space. Humans also have what appear to be a capacity to ask real questions about this world, but most questions already come from the point of view of the world working as they see it and from the theories that seem to come from the time period which they are seemingly apart of. For example, the question where did this body and earth come from, generally already presume body and earth are real objects in the first place and those "things" have or must have a source in which "they" come from, like a somewhere else or are made of something particular object. Now pause a moment, do you let this in. Try and really let the presumption, no matter how irrational it seems to every indicator of reality, that just maybe, body, earth, space and time aren't what is happening, it may "seem" that way, it may "feel" that way, it may be "thought" of that way but perhaps, just maybe these are faulty conclusions to begin with. AND that possibly there for there isn't anything that comes from somewhere else or is made of matter or energy. This does not mean there isn't anything, since its obvious there IS, otherwise there wouldn't be any sort of experience or comprehension happening, or disagreement, or illusion. My belief is just leaving open the possibility and dropping the inherent conclusions opens up the possibility to understand what IS.

I actually have no idea what your saying, but thats ok, you seem happy, understand yourself and what your trying to say and thats enough for me.

Ah, how to distinguish an astral experience vs a spiritual one. I have no idea. Sorry. In my mind they could be one and the same. But maybe someone else see's it differently and could help you more specifically.