EternalForest

Masculine men speak like MEN. Yet a man cannot talk to a woman like a man and succeed. I can say this from experience as a masculine man, trying to talk and build relationships with dozens of women, at the end of the day I'm always called a heartless robot or "boring". Despite the fact I talk to men and women the same for potential friendships (and with women, even potential relationships). With men, without even trying, I make small talk which leads to a full conversation. While with women, despite my hardest efforts, I get no engagement. But I guarantee you if I made myself more feminine with those same girls, things would be different. Because in my experience, women only respond to feminine energy, from men and otherwise. The problem is, I am not capable of supplying them with said energy, despite the fact I'm a creative person myself and I'm very emotional on the inside, not the outside. Why? Is it a flaw with my personality or myself? I don't know if I'd say that, because I have so many loyal male friends who love and care about me, let me talk about anything, give me a ride when I'm stranded, pick up the tab when I'm short on money, talk to me for 3-6 hours about even the most "frivolous" or "childish" topics, and allow me to be unfiltered. These are not shallow or childish relationships, they are true brotherly bonds. And I'm allowed to be myself around them, fully. In contrast, if I talk to a woman long enough, there's a guaranteed chance that I will offend her and she will stop talking to me. A masculine man by himself, I believe, is actually repulsive to women. When a woman sees a masculine man, really sees him: His love of games is seen as childish. His passion for fighting or hunting will be seen as violent (or Stage Red around these parts) His bluntness is seen as rude. His logic is seen as cold. His verbal passion for his car comes off as boring. His encyclopedic knowledge about sports comes off as frivolous. His passion for chess comes off as nerdy. His passion for old school values comes off as obsolete. His lack of emotion comes off as robotic. So it really bugs me when I see dating advice online that says things like "just talk to women like normal people" or "just be yourself". That's all bullshit to me. Now I don't believe women should respond to something they don't like, and I also don't believe men should change themselves for someone, when those same traits work well for a dozen other people. So men like me are at a stalemate. Thoughts?

@Emerald "don't expect women to give you romantic love out of a sense of charity". Relationships aren't a charity, but if everyone thought this way, there would be no relationships because no one would give anyone else a chance. "you're asking women to solve a problem that isn't a problem for them" - It's called empathy, the same reason why men can have empathy for women deciding whether or not to get an abortion even though they don't give birth Respectfully, I'm not finding our exchanges to be very productive. I can't make friends with women because outside of a few girls from school who I don't talk to outside of school, and a few girls I met on reddit over the years, women do not like me. You refuse to acknowledge my perspective or my pain. You twist my longing for love into entitlement and you use my isolation with women as a way to reinforce the idea that I'm a stranger to all women and I probably make them feel unsafe. Which is only going to make me want to isolate further. And yes, I do go out of my way to try to help others, but not in this area of life, because my romantic love is unwanted. Unless you have some specific advice to help or some empathy for men, I'd prefer to end the verbal sparring now, because its honestly stressing me out. Goodnight.

If you read back on the thread, I already acknowledged that I agree, they like clean masculine energy packaged in a way they find attractive. They don't like raw masculine energy

So do you honestly think the best approach when talking to a guy like me is to tell them: - 100% of women are entitled to act cold and detached towards me - There are drug dealers and gangsters that women feel safer with than me, someone who has never done drugs or committed a crime - Women don't owe me anything supposedly and I don't owe women anything so we're at a standstill forever How do you think that advice is going to help me grow or improve my mindstate? Not at all. All it's going to do is dehumanize me, belittle me, invalidate my experiences, and subtly imply that I'm entitled for even EXPECTING to make connections with women, which is absurd. Where's the empathy?

I think its the lack of shared social spaces and gender roles. Back in the day, men and women shared space together, and knew how to court each other. It was very ritualistic and simple. In the age of online dating and feminism, nobody knows what the fuck to do.

Despite the fact you don't believe it, it's harder for men to get sex than women. That's why its considered impressive. And to me, sex is just sharing love. Nothing wrong with loving sex

I'm going to reply to everyone at once. (Everyone does not have to reply back but if you have something to advance the conversation with, I'd love to hear it :D) @aurum Then why does everyone say that men and women aren't that different? The conventional wisdom contradicts itself. @Kid A Regarding the media, I agree that it's fucked how much airtime the worst of society gets. It gives sickos the idea that they might get on the nightly news and it's horrible and needs to stop, unless there's an active crisis and the public needs updates. Regarding topics, yes, obviously men and women aren't into the same topics in general. If you care about someone though, I always thought that you take at least somewhat of an interest in what they care about. @Schizophonia While I appreciate the Freudian psychology angle, here's the thing, I'm not unhappy at all. I have struggles in my life with this and outside of this sure, but on a personal basis, I'm happy with myself. I'm trying to use the forum as a springboard to figure out why women aren't happy with me. Saying you're not masculine unless you're completely honest about your pain implies that I'm intentionally suppressing something. @Natasha Tori Maru If there was a way I could look at the world that would actually allow me to get a relationship, I'd want it. I feel like I'm too masculine for women to enjoy being around. It's not a social skills issue, because once again I have many male friends. @Miguel1 You sound like a great wingman to have, very good intuition. Masculine energy by itself isn't attractive, it's the skillful combo of masculine and feminine energy, as you're describing. That's what wins. @Leo Gura @Majed @Someone here I don't NEED a girlfriend but I can't deny it's a real void in my life. I feel like there was a point where I thought I was getting closer, and then the moment I slipped up, girls lost interest again. I don't want to be something I'm not, but it seems like the only want to get a girlfriend is to be able to read minds. "If by masculine you mean stoic, serious, unexpressive, unemotional, untalkative, and logical" Bingo, that's me... And honestly I'm nowhere near a Zen master but I do prefer spending my time doing more "serious" things, yet I still want a girlfriend to share my life with. It's a tough spot. @AION @Hojo Times have certainly changed. I feel like I would've done better living in the 20th century. @joeyi99 They're attracted to grounding energy from men they already trust, sure. But by default, women don't trust strange men they don't know yet. @Salvijus @Sugarcoat Yes I absolutely Charlie-d out. That's how journals look! They're supposed to be messy and raw, for no one else's eyes. I rarely post mine and only posted that one to give more perspective on my issue. @NewKidOnTheBlock Brainrot? Not really. The concept of the masculine and feminine (and literature about it) is a whole field of study on its own. @UnbornTao Okay, what about Punisher? @Hardkill I mean masculine in the unattractive sense, not the attractive one. Like Leo said, "If by masculine you mean stoic, serious, unexpressive, unemotional, untalkative, and logical". I want to be bold and start cold approach this Winter, do one of those experiments like you see on YouTube. "I asked 100 girls on a date" That would be fun. @XXXXXX Don't know how many approaches but the number is very small. I've only been on one date in my life and it was back in high school. Looking back, it might have only been a "date" to me, not to her lol. So that makes (maybe?) 1 girlfriend in my life. I've had a couple long term relationships with women online over the years but ultimately they're thousands of miles away from me so they could only grow so much without the physical element. I'm also a virgin if that isn't already obvious @Tenebroso The women into guys that like are not the women you'd want around you anyways. But I get it, it can feel demoralizing when you feel like they have a better shot at a date than you. It's because they're exposed to hundreds and thousands of women, and there's always going to be a few women with a screw loose. In contrast, you're exposed to way less, even if you're a better guy. @Emerald All I want is kindness and love from girls. That's it. Where does maturity or humanity come into this? Like Leo said, I don't think you'd call a Zen master "immature", but he could definitely have an underdeveloped feminine (I'm decades away from being a master of any kind, it's just an example). You speak as if the man relating to women desperately is his choice? That's the position he's in, like it or not, he can't change it so might as well own it. I wish I had more women in my life or was more feminine but I'm not right now. It is what it is. Regarding your example, I don't know, in a sense, it would be more dishonest for him to pretend like everything's A-okay with women. The bird stuff was interesting. From a guy's POV, there are few things a woman could do to make me more interested, like showing genuine interest in who I am and what I care about. I will agree though, the gender roles are pretty baked-in in that regard. @Never_give_up @Spiral The grass is always greener... I wish I was in your position! Being a girl's guy would be awesome. I guess being too masculine or too feminine is equally bad though, I suppose.

@Emerald This kind of brutalist thinking is at odds with the idea of an attractive woman from the man's perspective, though. Men go to women for grace, warmth, tenderness, nurturing and kindness. The majority of men do not have any resentment to take out, this is projection. The majority of lonely. men do not have negative feelings toward women, they only want someone to love and they're frustrated. Similarly, Leo has said that the woman doesn't need beauty from the man. Both genders have different needs and I think a lot of guys want their relationships with women to be emotional flexible and empathetic. This does NOT mean women should be with guys they're not attracted to. What it does mean, however, is that I think women ought to put more thought into these things. I don't think mate selection should be all intuition as you say. "Either you like him or you don't" is a pretty simplistic way of thinking and will open you up to con artists who try and make you feel good in the moment without thinking about the big picture of who you're talking to. If someone said "it just felt right" to selecting the person they're spending the rest of their life with, I'd be skeptical personally. And once again, ironically the dangers of those men that make women feel good in the moment are the most overlooked, while the nervous men and the ones that don't know what to say are called "dangerous" or "creepy". Your deal-breakers and incompatibilities are also blinding you from the man who could actually be the right guy. Picture this: Imagine the perfect guy in your head, he's got all the qualities you want mentally and physically and none of the ones you don't want... Only one problem. He's addicted to the Rubik's Cube. He takes it everywhere with him and he's constantly playing with it. Would that minor thing turn you off the perfect guy? For a lot of women, it would, and that's stupid. Because the deal-breakers that are unattractive or childish to women often come with the most brilliant and loving guys that they'd overall want otherwise, but they're constantly left in the dust. Regarding your relationship, okay, he was a taker not a giver. But was he a good person? Because you're only mentioning his flaws. What was good about him? Why did you get together with him int the first place?

I also journaled a LOT after I wrote this, and maybe getting more vulnerable might help you understand better: All I was saying was that the moment I let loose with girls, I get reprimanded and told "you can’t say this" or "you can’t say that". And even with girls online when I would get a little bit too cocky or I would get a little too critical, they would just delete me. So I have to be careful what I say, but then nothing ever goes deeper than the surface. Therefore, there’s no deeper connection. So it’s a vicious cycle. And one clarification: I’m not being neutral for them. That’s just my natural state, but for whatever reason men respond better. Men take my neutrality as inviting and then allow me to be uncensored, while women take my neutrality as hostile. Everyone says that I should just use mutual friends, but I don’t feel comfortable with that because if there’s a breakup, then it’s gonna ripple through the entire friend group. So the last thing I wanna do is ask my friends if they know anyone who’s single. More and more I’m entertaining the idea of the matchmaker. Before I didn’t wanna do it because I thought why would I pay someone to find someone? Now the way I see it, I’m gonna be paying all this money on these online dating apps anyways. I’d rather give that money to a professional. People have been doing it for thousands of years. If anything, the online dating is the thing that’s foreign. Even back in the times of the Renaissance and the Victorians they had matchmakers. Even still, I don’t like the idea that my autonomy is outsourced to another source. And I don’t want my intentions to be misread. Because what happens if I’m stoic with the matchmaker…And they connect me to a stoic woman, but then the moment I open up, we find it’s the wrong match. Or the counter example — if I’m expressive in the beginning, but then once she gets to know me, she finds that I’m not expressive enough. At the end of the day, my feelings are expressed inside and a woman will never get a reliable read without ample time. It reminds me of Tony and Junior from Sopranos (yes I'm comparing myself to a man with dementia because that's how clueless I am with dating): Tony Soprano: so, let’s “assume” you didn’t know what you were saying, that you’re forgetting you’re saying shit over and over. Junior Soprano: yeah? Tony Soprano: "why’s it gotta be something mean? Why can’t you repeat something good? Don’t you love me?" The girls are Tony and I’m Junior. Even with my lack of knowledge, my intentions are still questioned. Doesn’t matter how much I love them or I care about getting to know them, I'm somehow always framed as the overly masculine, emotionless robot.

Hey guys, I was in a down mood when I posted that. I'll respond to everyone later when I get back., I'm at the movie theater watching the Chainsaw Man Movie!!! 🔥🪚🔥CHAINSAWWWWWW!!! 😄

@Emerald "Women are sensitive to men who view women as only prospects" Really? Most female-isolated men ironically aren't a threat to you or under any illusions of getting laid anymore, or at least any time soon. Ironically, those are the men you should be giving a chance. What happened to that good old female empathy and understanding, welcoming those flawed men with open arms? "Honestly, if I met a guy and he only had male friends and acquaintances, that would communicate to me something about his level of social networking skills, social aptitudes, and values more generally. " What would it communicate? If the man has a lot of friends, regardless of gender, he has good social networking skills and social aptitude in my opinion.

That's a real question and honestly I'm in 20s so I don't think about it, but it is a very real fear I have.

So there's like 4 different conversations going on here at the same time In regards to social circles being stronger the more diverse they are, I fundamentally disagree. All you need to do is talk to guys who have "guys nights out" or girls who have "girls nights out" and you'll find they're much happier and those nights are their reprieves, their escapes from their girlfriends or boyfriends or even the opposite sex in general. My all male friend group has been in my life for over 15 years and it's been the #1 reason why I don't suffer from depression or loneliness. I can deal with being single as long as I have the guys. Without a girlfriend OR the guys, I'd be very lonely. If you're saying it shows maturity for a guy to be able to have female friends, but you don't feel the same about women, that's a double standard. I also never related diversity to mediocrity, I was saying that the diversity of the friend group has little to do with its quality, and diversifying the group for the sake of it could lead to mediocrity because you're picking people more for their identity than their chemistry. Now one thing you said did hit home for me. It would be nice to have a female friend for the simple reason that it would allow me to not look at every woman I'm talking to as romantic prospect. That's a big issue for me right now.

Obviously this is something I'd like to have in theory. But I already love my circle. Why should I bring women in just for the sake of it? Does the strength in a social circle really hinge on its diversity? I'd rather be part of an all male or all female social circle that's loyal, fun and uncensored over one that's diverse and mediocre.

Bravo sir, I will start using this immediately.

Julien is great! Maybe some signs of very early Stage Yellow, but his stuff is mostly Stage 1 at the moment, in my opinion. Main reason, everything he talks about is very rooted in the physical and the practical, especially in the realm of social skills. There are some things that are higher than "being yourself", although that alone is something that the majority of people still need help achieveing, and I think watching his videos will make you a better person. That said, I wish someone would go through and improve his Wikipedia page. It's overly negative and outdated. He is a completely different person now.

From two of the best prison films ever: The Shawshank Redemption (ending): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkxXGxa2JkU Felon (climax): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCtRhrRU4fU

Simply epic.

One of the best of all time.

At least it's Rockstar so you know it'll be worth the wait!

There are two Disneys: Disney as a creative company is the cornerstone of American pop culture, and I agree, has brought great memories to all of our lives (to this day!) This Disney will always make great films. Disney as a corporation is a purely capitalistic, cold hearted machine that has no values except to maximize profits. One gives us stuff like The Lion King. And the other gives us stuff like Mufasa...

I love it! I actually included it in my most recent short story compilation that I make once a year. Stephen King is truly the master of genre fiction, not just horror but also sci-fi.

Try to look at rejection as something neccesary. Think of it this way, even if you wanted to be friends with everyone in the world, you couldn't. You wouldn't have the time. Same thing with a partner, even more so. As long as you have some faith that at least one person will say yes to you, that's all you need. Put your time and energy into the people that say yes, not the ones who reject you. Not to say you shouldn't learn from your rejections, but stop taking them so seriously. Again, it's inevitable, or everyone would have billions of relationships and not be able to tend to any of them.

Stage Blue, I'd say. From the woman's perspective, it would be a living hell keeping up the ruse of a "perfect marriage" when its anything but.

AITA is easily the worst subreddit on the entire site. A bunch of keyboard warriors with a superiority complex acting as a verbally abusive judge and jury when ironically their biases are so extreme they'd never be selected on a real jury.