Jack River

Yep. The thought that stops moving is the psychological thought. Thought will still move to solve practical problems. To control certain aspects of environmental or to meet physical needs. But thought is not psychologically in motion. As in there is no striving to achieve, attain, control psychologically. Which means no desire/attachment/identification/registration/recollection psychologically..There is a total break down between subject/object as in the experiencer and experienced and it's almost at a point of unconciousness. There is a very deep unconsciousness/nonbeing “state”. At times it comes about now when I am floating out in the sea. Or when I am just sitting in a quiet place.

Fosho. Thought definitely has its place man. Gotcha. Good luck man

@RichardY hmm I see. I don’t know anything about those charachters but I appreciate your referencing dude. What I am talking about is not the result of integrating knowledge as such. The integration takes place in the seeing beyond the intellectual mechanism of thought. As in to observe without the intellectual/conceptual veil of self. To see holistically all thoughts patterns and for what they ACTUALLY are. To observe thought as movement itself, or as a process. This is how I feel this integration, or coherence/order arises. In the comprehension of the whole of thought is the dissolving of incoherence/disorder. Awareness is action of order/coherence/wholeness. Integration to me is come about negatively if I can use that word. It’s more about understanding thought through your own experience. No knowledge necessary actually. I think I am understanding you my dude. I hope I became more clear as well. Thanks for your reponse dude?

@kieranperez sorry my Brahman This is what I was talkkng about. We presuppose and make distinctions according to experience. Actually the opposite can be said my man. To start off with “certainty” prevents any actual conversation or communication at all. What if we started with I don’t know instead of presupposing or concluding on things before exploring objectively? See what I mean? Im not talking about doubting any teacher, but instead pointing at the necessity of self understanding. To doubt our own self centered activity as in the influence of our own self imposed authority due to thoughts inherent nature to strive for psychological security. Seems impotant, no?

It’s a good idea to be attentive to what is said. And not what selfs reaction interprets, through its fear/resistance, what is said. In other words learn about yourself in these interactions with each other.

I am not in opposition to your post dude. It’s not that I like or dislike anything. And what I am taking about is not nondual, it is speaking about the dual. It has nothing to do with spiritual either. It’s just pointing at self activity. You are interpreting what I say a snobbery, thisnis a reaction. Thought has come in and made an assumption. Do you see?

Spiritual? oh no. Just pointing to thought patterns. All our actions are influenced by these patterns of perception/thinking. So actually it all relates directly to the thread

The confused self/ego projects in that confusion who is enlightened and who is not according to its own experience/bias. You see the point dudes...to truly start with I don’t know is really necessary fosho.

What is enlightenment dudes? Coming from a place of “knowing” what you think it already is means you are already caught in distinction and do not realize it. You don’t truly know what enlightenment is, or “who” is. So does self see that there is a necessity to start with I don’t know what it is? And if so what action follows comprehending that?

This order/coherence/goodness comes not with accumulated thought inventions, but understanding the whole of thought itself.

There is no coming to this order/coherence by accumulating and conforming to any “isms” or thought inventions. But instead understanding directly the nature of thought/felling/emotion as a process. Does that make sense?

I’m not following you dude. This coherence I’m talking about is not avoidance or acceptance of ideas, concepts, theory’s. All that is this coherence. You see what I mean? I mean coherence as in a word pointing to order/harmony, as in no psychological seeking through thought itself. Not a concept that self/ego conforms too.

Can we say that “true desire” is action influenced by coherence/order? So the awareness of incoherence brings about coherent action. Awareness is action. One action. And “false desire” is action influenced by incoherence/disorder? Where this conditioned desire is a movement of thought, then action. Divided action. When energy is longer wasted on conditioned action/reaction or divided action.

@Nahm ? I mean when desire, as in there is a pursuit of pleasure, gratification, or satisfaction becomes searched for to bring about contentment that conditioned action implicitly sets the foundation for pain/suffering/fear, and that leads to more reactionary response. Then we get in a loop of conflict. Seeing how this all connects as causal action and reaction is most excellent. Awareness brah?

The evil tends to arise when self sees itself as real. When it does this it moves towards or away from good/evil. Both in this case are still time/ego/self bound. As in still incoherence remains. To make a distinction here, I see goodness as actually being coherent action, and evil as incoherent action. When this reaction in either direction psychologically ends then there is coherence/goodness, and that goodness is not born of its opposite, evil. If that makes sense.

Yeah, as to resist is reaction. When we resist evil, which is an inncoherent action, we are arenstill moving within that incoherence. The evil and the resistance are part of the same structure of incoherence as psychological movement(illusion).

The groovy thing is we don’t “become” enlightened. What this points too is a living that doesn’t resist change. A life that isn’t limited to attachment/identification with its fear based reactions and such. A living as WHAT IS.

Desire is to tricky. It always moves positively or away from itself which still is desire/reaction. I’m just saying understand this pattern of desire/bring awareness to it/self. See it formwaht it is, such as, fear, attachment/identification/pleasure/psychological becoming...If that makes sense

Be headless fosho. Thats kinda what I’m trying to say here. Don’t be Desireless, just understand this desire. In this awareness all action is whole.

Oh I see what you mean. We don't have to give up things in life. It comes down to psychological dependence. If the action we take is not born of fear it’s all good. As long as it’s not reaction based that is healthy. Action that comes from reaction fuels the “me”.

Well, has this desire disappeared for you?, that’s the only way to tell dude. That is not an idea you want to accumulate from others. In diesres stopping there is its own seeing. Some might say ther is Devine desire, but self will conform to that idea, which still remains the conditioned reaction desire. In that ending is revealed the answer to that. Is this assumption that there are “enlightened beings” arising from desire itself? Does it give you hope, and is this not desire in pursuit? Its fun to watch our intentions, motives, assumptions and how they relate to psychological seeking.

What you mean dude

Maybe the word comes in and prevents awareness. Fear that fuels the pursuit, Desire. That desire is a movement of resistance from what is. As in any feeling of lacking, discontent, incompleteness, insecurity and such. It’s all an escape. It’s implicit in desire this fear/attachment/resistance. The opposite of desire remains desire .. it’s an invention born of desire itself. The opposite has its root in its own opposite. Pretty gnarly how mind works.

Intelligence/awareness is not separate from love.

It is relative fosho. Presupposed distinction or preset by there own experience.