Jack River

What makes it an illusion? Could it be the pursuit of the reward of contentment/happiness? Could it be looking to thought, as in the idea/concept/theory/abstraction of “nonduality” and conforming to it? Is this a process of self clinging to itself by looking for an answer/escape in “nonduality”(thought content). ?

The fact is division. It seems the escape from this fact is a reaction of that divison. Any movement away from what is the case seems to be the result of lack of unity/peace.

It seems these are actually directly related. Can you make what your saying simply clear my dude?

I think I’m following what your laying down sis

Fosho my dude? This genuine investigation/enquiry seems to be the determining factor. Unless there's that freedom, resistance calls the shots.

I feel ya. But nevertheless is it a means to an end? Is it reward based? That's the thing. In most cases it seems that the self is not interested in the unknown or what is, as in starting with true humility, which means no projecting according to its own content/movement of time. But is searching for a way out of the current state they are in. It’s a searching for security/safety. Namean dude?

The more we depend on time the longer consciousness stays at the place it is. Depending on time is resistance itself. Thinking evolution or time will end this unenlightend state is what sustains that state of divison/conflict.

which is why maybe starting with an understanding of self/though would create a foundation of what not to do. It wouldn’t be a choosing what not to do, but the absence of choice. Awareness would see that choice is the conditioned pattern. We would see that all movement of self is a movement that resist what is. Which means humility would be at essence non movement forward/backward to attain/resist.. As in no goal, no assumption which is a reaction that arises from the thought/emotion cycle. An assumption that there is such a thing as truth/enlightenment would not be concluded upon. There would be absolutely no movement towards or away from what is the case. Also known as no psychological becoming/time. It’s a genuine starting with I DONT KNOW, let’s find out. Right dude. You see in this we are not looking for an answer but are only staying with what is as the problem. Thought/self doesn’t seem to work that way. It always wants move away from what is to what it desires. Only that desire is a product of resistance/avoidance of the problem.

Again it’s not an understanding via verbal/intellectual. It’s a seeing which is its own action which brings a stop to that conditioned momentum.

No I totlay understand dude. But what if the “student” was already aware by “self” understanding that his moving towards reward would prevent an ending of conditioned momentum? You see what I mean?

Well that’s the point too. Resistance/assumption/not starting with humility seems to prevent actual seeing/listening. We come into a conversation with the personal goal/reward which prevents total insight. The goa/end will prevent truth. Because truth is not fixed. And a goal reward seems to imply that truth “enlightenment” is. What I mean is to humility seems to imply that there is insight that being inspired by reward will bring about a fixed outcome.

Right. It seems to be a pursuing what is already known. It’s like saying I want to die but only because I seek a reward such as truth or “enlightenment”. Therefore not interested in dying but a continuation of self and its attachment to itself(the known) or the content it accumulates as thought.

The pursuit can be seen as equally an act of rational conditioned thinking/achieving/projecting.

Fosho. But is the pursuit of a breakthrough a response of thought which is the same mechanism that thinks, theorizes, and is motivated by the fantasy of that breakthrough?

It seems this is a method of matter(thought) to progressively change its own conditioning with its own conditioned pattern. could there be a way to bypass all that?

Fosho. But, I can see people going in circles as resistance will continue to increase more conflict. And that conflict will be followed by a reaction which keeps the illusion going.

@PreetomAlso seems that many will conform to this way, and still continue to be caught in that path/ego/time pattern. This is where it can get difficult.

Right.

Or ego even before “on a path to enlightenment” is already on a path of its own prior to that.

@Preetom also do you think that applies equally to a path. Ego is already in one way or another on a certain path. It seems that ego conforms to a path directly because of this desire/fear/resistance/effort pattern. You see what I mean brah? So this seems to me that a path and and the ego are inseparable. Makes sense?

Is Love dependent on the notion of it being reciprocal? Is that what you mean?

Right, but also in this sense..desire seems to arise because of a lack of which when we look deep is fear in reaction to itself. Desire is a reaction of fear. But if this arises as an experience we can see it as one unit of resistance in movement. Or time as you said.

Defense mechanism fosho. I see fear and desire as one movement too. Do you see what I mean?

Fosho. We seem to incoherently move within the conditioned field of matter. As in knowledge/memory or thought. Then we “the self” reacts to thought/emotion which activates this compulsion to attatch/identify and conform to that content/movement of thought.

Seems thought transcends its own limit unconsciousnessly. Every step we take in a movement of incoherence.