Javad

Hey. I was just reading this poem from one of the Persian mystic poets from ~800 years ago or so, and it sat right in my heart and I thought I could share it with you. A little context: the poetry book is called "the logic of the bird" if translated word by word. But it's better translated as "the way of the bird" or "the logic of the flight". Flying is a metaphor for the path toward enlightenment. It's a story of a group of birds who decide that their kingless realm needs a king, as a kingless realm will end up in chaos. So the birds gather to go on a journey to meet up with the great phoenix to ask him to be their king. But in this path, there are many traps. Phoenix in persian is called سیمرغ (read: Simorgh/Simorq), and bird is called مرغ (Morgh/Morq). And "Si" means the number 30. So there is this clever use of language to show a metaphor: the 30 birds that went to the phoenix, were actually one and the same: Simorgh (phoenix) = Si-Morgh (30 birds). So they were the king all along. The book isn't translated in English I believe, and I'm not great at literary skills, so sadly the beauty of the poetry will be butchered, but I hope the meaning captures you as much as it did me. "See the travelers at the doorway, Coming together, one after another. There is in every speck another doorway, So from each speck there is another way. How would you ever know which way you'd be walking, And from which way you'd reach the doorway? He's hidden when you seek him in the obvious, And obvious when you seek him in the hidden. And as you look into both places at once, no trace of him still, he's out of both. You haven't lost anything, don't seek a thing Whatever you say it's not it, don't say a thing, All you say and all you know is you, Know thyself, that you are all there is to know." - Attar of Neishabur (Mantegh-ol-tayr - the way of the bird)

Hello. How's everyone doing? So I realized something sad, and that's how little Islamic enlightenment-related philosophy is known in the world. Some of the best descriptions of the path of enlightenment that both make sense to the rational mind, and transcends rationality in practice, have been created in the Islamic tradition. But because of a lot of reasons, they have been almost totally unknown to the west and the east, and even the majority of Muslims themselves are unaware of its existence! (as based on the spiral dynamics, majority of Islam falls into stage blue and thus is not interested in stage turquoise material unless it has blue appeals) Anyway! I want to give you a few links to introduce you to the school called "Illuminationism", synthesis of the works and views of Neoplatonism, Ibn-Sina's philosophy, and influences from early Persian wisdom, as well as original ideas from the creator of this school: Suhrawardi. This is the main link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminationism In it, you can find a lot of links to get you started in digging deeper into the subject. It can give you a very general glimpse of the philosophy/view and be your starting point. . I think it's very important to know about "Knowledge by Presence" before continuing to read the rest, as it is the epistemological foundation for the whole illuminationism stuff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_by_presence . This one goes into it a bit more in-depth: https://iranicaonline.org/articles/illuminationism . If you got interested in the epistemological foundations of this school, check this: http://www.mullasadra.org/new_site/english/Paper Bank/Ontology/Knowledge as light @.htm . I highly recommend you read these articles listed below as well, so you get a good contextual understanding. It helps you understand where the ideas of this school came from. First, the schools and views that influenced the creation of Illuminationism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripatetic_school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoplatonism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_philosophy And especially: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna (Ibn-Sina is called Avicenna in English) Then we have the most influential persons of the school: Suhrawardi, the creator of the school: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahab_al-Din_Yahya_ibn_Habash_Suhrawardi Mulla Sadra, the master, took the school to its highest form: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulla_Sadra Plus, this is and interesting and short read. It's Mulla Sadra's book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transcendent_Philosophy_of_the_Four_Journeys_of_the_Intellect I hope this helps someone. The interesting thing about this school is how organized it is and how much it MAKES SENSE if you have the contextual knowledge. It helps you map out the journey, not just in terms of metaphors, but with a good rational and philosophical understanding as well.

Hey how's it going? I am making this topic because I have had quite a discovery for a month now, and I am very inclined to share it with the only online community I know that has any idea what I'll be talking about! So you guys might've heard of Sufism in the Islamic culture (the guy in Leo's bio, Rumi, is a Sufi for example). I just wanted to remind you that this school of enlightenment has been lost in all the information overload of the 21st century. Also, since the majority of you guys are not familiar with the Islamic and Persian literature (and also might have all sorts of pre-assumptions that shield you from going even near them) I assume that most of you have no idea about the amazing sources that you're missing. Sufism is a very highly developed spiritual/non-dual practice in its depth, and it also has had a lot of fakers and surface level users. But there are trustable sources one can study and follow up on. What makes Sufism very special though, in my eyes, is not their way of pursuing enlightenment, but their wholesome worldview. It does have flaws I must say, but the way they have been able to make sense of this crazy senseless infinity of existence amazes me. Another HUGE thing that makes them special is their poetry and literature. If only you had the context one needs to understand someone like Hafez, you would've been blown away by what I have called for myself "transcendental art". The poetry works in a way that in whatever level of awakening you are at, you get a different meaning from the poetry. Most people (who are only seeing life as a person in the world) only get the surface level meaning which is mesmerizing as a form of art, but have no idea what is happening. Now the magic with Hafez is that he uses irony in a transcendental level, by making the surface meaning of his poetry mean things that relate to sexual attraction, alcoholism, nihilism, living for the moment, determinism, confusion, beggary, and so on. And when the transcendental gets revealed to those who can see it, the meaning is in paradox or irony with the surface level meaning. I really wish it was possible to bring it to English without it losing a lot of its artistic value. Goethe was in love with Hafez as well. He wrote western-eastern Divan as a conversation between himself and Hafez I think. But yeah anyways, for those who are interested, Sufism and specially its literature (Rumi, Hafez, Mahmoud Shabestari, Sheikh Bahai, Attar Neishabouri, Maghrebi, Hatef Isfahani, etc.) are highly recommended sources for spiritual companionship.

well that tiny bit didnt have any effect. Im about to do my first trip either tomorrow or the day after. will write the report in the trip report thread as well

Hello everyone. Hope you're all doing well. I have taken a huge leap of faith and have bought LSD and am ready to use it to move forward towards the place that you don't feel the need to more forward. Now a little background on me: I have pretty much ZERO experience on psychedelics. I never smoked until last year and then I smoked weed twice, and a cigarette once just so I'm a little bit familiar with a shift in state of consciousness, or just smoke inside of me. But that doesn't really ever get you up to the challenge of using psychedelics. I appreciate any help/tip that could help me have a safe experience and learn from it. The substance is LSD The dealer gave me some tips like "don't touch the substance it'll ruin it" but i don't know how to get it to my mouth safely (yeah i'm that ignorant in this matter) he said don't keep it in warm places but does that mean i can't keep it in my pocket till i get back home? and finally smth he said that boggles me: he said use a little bit of opium to get yourself down from the high. But opium is not a psychedelic and i DO NOT want to use drugs. Do you have any advice to give on how the trip goes and how i can get down from the high safely as well? thanks a lot

so i got the lsd. i cut a tiny bit of it to both test if it works on super little doses, and also to taste it. it doesn't taste bitter. it takes almost nothing, but maybe a bit sour, like @outlandish said so. i had a problem cutting it tho. need a sharper thing to cut it with. it's been a while. the tiny bit is still not dissolved, also no impact. hmm also one thing. it doesnt matter if you put it on or under your tongue right? the point is for it to dissolve in your tongue?

i have one friend who has used it before but i don't think he'd be available. another friend of mine actually volunteered to help! but he doesn't have any previous experience; neither in tripping nor trip sitting. So it'd be hard for him to help. but i think it'd be better than nothing since i have no idea what's to come it's better to have someone you trust be there to provide support

@outlandish thanks that's actually super helpful

hahaha enlightenment jokes. You people know how to make everything funny lol.

Hey guys So in my contemplations about who i am i was thinking about an analogy and i got to a point where i can't clarify something. I'm hoping you can help. So if we think of our properties like body as a car, is the mind the driver or consciousness? Cuz i feel like mind should be part of the car, and consciousness is the "me" behind the wheel. But at the same time consciousness doesn't do. It doesn't decide. It just "watches". So where is the mind and where is consciousness in this model? Could i be misinterpreting the model in the first place?

Thanks to everyone. Helped a lot. Btw, as a food for the mind, check this way of explaining consciousness: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_man @Leo Gura i can only SORTA get conscious of existence itself. I can't point out to it, can't pin it down, and i feel like that's cuz I'm too grounded in ego's perspective. I can't really not look at things without having a subject-object relationship

@Truth Addict his content, specially in his philosophy books and quotations. Personally haven't dived in his world, but with my knowledge of spiral dynamics, i can see both stage yellow and turquoise in his way of thinking. Example

For those of you interested in spiral dynamics and medicine and healing, i thought i'd introduce you to one of the most sophisticated healers of all time, which happened to also be at stage turquoise. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna Believe me, combining his content will elevate your modern understanding of human body and mind to a whole other level you can't imagine right now!

@Dumb Enlightened yeah that's most likely because you were following up with the main stream self help which is basically marketed all over the place. Try REAL psychology. It actually does deal with the deep issues instead of telling you to go for this shallow "success" type of life. I'll give you an example from my life: A little while ago, i learned that my teenage years' memories of my parents taking away the pc cable and arguing with me while playing video games have manifested in an emotional trigger. Every time i see something being taken from me "for my own good" unconsciously all of the past memories come up in 1 fast burst, which becomes anger, and then i suddenly am feeling angry from inside, am moody from outside, my performance drops, my logic shuts down. The mind blow part for me is, not having had the level of mindfulness i have, i woulda never guessed i am feeling so emotional because of a memory from years ago. Now you also might need to step back from super speed growth, take a little while to self reflect, see how you feel, and what you think, journal them, maybe show it to a psychologist, find the source of your emotions and thoughts, and with all that info, and maybe some outside advice, you can probably fix the problem from the root. It's true that enlightenment fixes all problems from the root (cuz you stop identifying yourself as the ego) but TO get to that stage, you might need to actually go back and heal up, fix old issues, mostly unconscious programming needing to be deleted or changed. Good luck on your path

@Truth Addict oh! I thought i intellectually understood enlightenment after all the things i learned, but as i was trying my best to think through what you said and imagine a no separation of subject and object, i realized i actually can't not separate them. Is there a practice to focus on trying to see that perspective? I do meditation, but I'm not sure if I _even in my deepest states_ could NOT separate me and my thoughts/feelings/experiences and see with no me-and-other perspective

I personally haven't experienced enlightenment yet, but i feel like this might help. This seems to be a problem of balance in growth. If you grow your spiritual side a lot, to a point that you've had multiple and deeper enlightenment experiences, but your identity self has not been getting enough notice and growth, you could experience a big disconnect. I believe the best thing you can do might be going back, getting to know the identity self better, finding the depth of its issues (lots of which come from unconscious programming of childhood and growing up), and facing them. You could dissolve your identity to experience enlightenment as a state, but to be a truly enlightened self, you need to actually face every bit of your identity self and deal with it. In a way, most likely there is no human that is absolutely fully enlightened, since identity most likely has infinite parts and you have to put deliberate focus on each part to grow it or dissolve it. So yeah in summary, try shifting your focus on mindfulness over your identity, and dealing with the issues. Try a GOOD psychologist who also has an understanding of enlightenment. Helps a lot.

Makes sense. Yeah i also tried to put a space between my love for them and our different beliefs. The problem is in me acting the way i do (the habit loop) I've been digging deep inside my own head to find solutions. I thought asking for others' perspectives is a valuable way to get some new insights i didn't think about myself. Thanks for sharing your experience, i'll keep it in mind

Hey guys I've been dealing with this issue that i believe a lot of people also face. I've been raised and programmed the way i have been, and now I'm "me". and ever since I've started this conscious effort of personal growth and self actualization, and now have committed myself to deep understanding of reality and truth, I have faced this problem with my family which has 2 parts: 1) The more I get rid of my old paradigms and belief systems and grow out of my culture and religion's way of thinking, the more i have to kinda hide my beliefs and world view from them and whenever they get out, we'd have arguments and they feel like they need to "help me submit back to the right way of thinking and looking at the world" which in this case is conservative islamic view. At least i kinda found a balance to sort this problem out (thanks to Leo's sameness and difference + what is love videos, and my contemplation, i look for love and sameness over our surface level differences) But the 2nd one is what's bothering me more and it is: 2) This programming of mine from childhood to now (20 years old) makes me who i am, and has a lot of flaws. Now i have significantly grown mentally and in understanding compared to 3 years ago, but my destructive habit loops (like sitting in front of the pc for almost the whole day) and missing out on family meals and (even though my love for them has gone 10x higher) i dont show much love in my actions and spend time with them. This makes them feel so bad, and they don't know enough about my inside and how bad i feel about this and how i WANT TO show them love and not neglect other aspects of my life and yet don't do it because i feel powerless to the habit loop, and so they blame and flame me and get angry abd sad at me, and since I'm an empathetic person i feel their pain of my actions and so now i feel bad both about myself and i stack up their pain This 2nd issue is really eating me up, and even though i intellectually have solutions to the problem, i keep submitting back to the loop. Others of course wont have the exact same issue, but anyone with an issue about "knowing you have problems and wanting to grow but others who you care about also blame and demotivate you from growing" i think could use some help!

Oh ok thanks. Love Rumi and your quote of him too

Hey so i had this problem of intellectually understanding how important gratitude is, but while looking at how i show gratitude vs reading stories that showcase a person with a disability gaining the ability that normal people already possess, i feel my gratitude is only because I've been programmed that "being grateful is good. It shows you the things you've got and doesn't let you just take them for granted". I don't FEEL grateful, the way i feel like i should And i think there hasn't been a new source that deeply talks about the roots of where gratitude comes from and how can one truly be grateful from the core of their being not just try to just they're taught to do so

Hey guy what's up ? new member in the forum even though I've been watching the videos for about a year now Okay so let me give you a context then ask my question. So i came into the journey of self actualization about 3 years ago by randomly searching on internet "how do i control myself". Now i know that question itself is so naïve lol... But anyway, i was firstly introduced to the world of success oriented self help back then. The stuff i was reading were all about inner work and not really about income and " orange" success, but rather i felt they strengthened my understanding of myself, and slowly took me furthur in the spiral dynamics too. Now the most interesting person among all the people i followed in that realm was tony robbins. Now this guy is really an interesting case of study to me. Leo categorized him in stage orange, but i believe he goes really furthur than that, but rather, if you know him enough, you'd know he literally talks in every stage of spiral dynamics above blue. He has orange books, green books, yellow books, and he has a cult-like ~turquoise community and seminar style. Now if you look a little more closely, his approach to EVERY main thing he does is by systems thinking. Even his orange and green books are yellow-made books created for orange and green. He also really learned how to infiltrate blues and help them transcend to orange. I heard in his 2nd day in his big seminars "date with destiny" he talks about spiral dynamics itself. His success itself is orange success. His motives are pretty green. Trying to help everyone "achieve their highest self" which imo he words this way cuz he doesn't wanna sound abstract like someone like deepak chopra. Chopra's target audience are people with spiritualify understanding not the norm. His way of approaching all the stuff i saw was super yellow. From the design of the seminars to the books and the way he created his own way in success etc. He always talks about "invisible force", " universe", and says "i call it god call it whatever u want universe or whatever", so he doesnt provoke blue and specially orange that much by using their own words. He isn't as individualistic as yellow. He's all in in the field and tries to reach out as many people as he can, changing their lives, which is turquoise level. If you think about it he's a turquise that really understands the world and is trying to transcend it to next levels of this model using systems thinking. What do you think? Oh btw, found this too: http://robertbays.typepad.com/rbawakening-tools/2009/12/spiral-dynamics-and-tony-robbins.html