intrastellar

@Emerald To make this clear again: I never said that women shouldn't have a right to vote. I didn't even question it. Actually I said the opposite a few comments below and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise or cause anyone here to feel threatened. And still I see some value in Elliots perspective to be open minded about it. I understand that regarding this topic you have more skin in the game as a woman than he or I as men but that doesn't mean only women can talk about it or can add value to the conversation. If you don't see any value there thats your thing but if you're not willing or able to have a respectful eye-to-eye conversation then it's better we have no conversation. @Serotoninluv The idea that women maybe shouldn't vote is simply an idea and I agree with you that it's a regressive one. But I think it does matter who promotes the idea because the person behind the idea provides the context to understand where it is coming from and where it could lead - the context in which the idea might be realized (or not realized at all because there's a higher idea that blocks it). Also in reality it's not always so straight forward to determine the degree of development of an idea - they don't just come with coloured lables ready to be ordered in a hierarchy.

@Serotoninluv @bejapuskas There is a difference between not caring about something and having dismissing something - it's like the difference between 0 and -1000. I wouldn't contempate bying a donkey to commute because I see there are better ways for me to get to work. But that doesn't mean I would dismiss the idea of using a donkey to get to work. I wouldnt form a strong opinion about donkeys and I wouldn't riddicule people who choose to use a donkey to get to work and call them undeveloped. I simply wouldn't use a donkey to get to work. And if some day someone tells me that he's always riding a donkey to get to work I wouldn't laugh at him but simply ask him why? And who knows... maybe he convinces me that riding a donkey to get to work is actually a great idea for me :). Or not. That is open mindedness for me. But dismissing something without trying to understand it first, which means understanding why it is true for this person at this time and place, is closed minded, is a contraction in your consciousness and a reaction against it.

@bejapuskas Why do you think so? What does open mindedness mean to you?

@bejapuskas Again - thats besides my point. I'm not here to argue if women should have a right to vote. If you want my opinion on this the short answer is a strong yes - men and women should have equal rights. And I can understand that someone questioning that might feel threatening to a woman. Im talking about open mindedness. It's easy to be open minded if it's in line with your ideals but not so easy if it threatens your self interest or agenda - but it's valueble nontheless. But you won't get any value out of something that you're reacting against by riddiculing, demonizing and assuming the worst.

Being open minded necessarily includes being able to doubt and question things that seem obvious - even things like womens right to vote. That doesn't mean he actually wants to take that right away from women. You just assume the worst.

You assume that Elliot is trying to oppress women and their right to vote. I don't necessarily think he is. And I didn't say "Women fighting repression for the right to vote" is equivalent to "men repressing women and their right to vote". I said questioning the value of 'the accomplishments of feminism' follows the same rationale as question the value of 'being alpha and getting what you want': The idea that what you want and what you need (or even what's best for you) is not necessarily the same.

That's beside the point.

So open mindedness is only good if it doesn't interfere with your or your groups self-interest or your ideology? Aren't you two preaching open mindedness all the time? And now you're ridiculing it because you don't like the direction it could lead? Eliott Hulse in questioning the value of - let's call it 'the accomplishments of feminism' - follows the same rationale that was used here earlier to question the value of 'being alpha and getting what you want':

A truely beautiful and simple example. Warning: If you havn't seen the movie yet (or don't remember it anymore), watch it first!

My suggestion for your first book on such a challenge: "How to read a book" by Mortomer J. Adler and Charles van Doren.

I know what you mean. In german these concepts sometimes seem to sound silly and to miss the point. But why is that the case? Maybe thats a trap. Maybe contemplating these concepts only in english prevents you to make the connection to the concepts you use in everyday life, which is in german? I mean maybe thinking those concepts sound silly in german i really a preconception towards those concepts that you internallized from your environment? And maybe switching languages from time to time can give you more perspectives on what something is or what to contemplate about it. For example "What is consciousness?" You may contemplate it a while and then switch to german and ask "Was ist Bewusstsein?". And suddenly you realize there is the word "sein" in "Bewusstsein" (in english "sein" means "being" and "bewusst" mean "conscious" or "aware"). So you might wonder what is the connection between consciousness and being? Can there be being (sein) without consciousness (Bewusstsein)...

I'm curious about where you think/feel that you and your group is systemically oppressed by society, the status quo... This thread is about sharing your experiences about where you feel oppressed in any way based on your group (identity). How does it manifest for you? How do you percieve it? Where does it affect your life? Are there maybe expectations you feel you have to fulfill because of you groop. Or any preconceptions you feel are subjected towards you? ... What I don't want in this thread is arguing against something, somebody shared here. Not even to "try to help" the other. This is not a place for political debates but for sharing your perspective. What I also don't want here is speaking for someone else. Only personal experiences here please! I think this thread can be helpful in two ways: First we would get a collection of perspectives and to see what other people/groups are struggeling with. And second maybe formulating it, putting it into words and contemplating the matter might help you to see it clearer for yourself. I thank everyone who shares their experiences, thoughts, feelings here in advance. I'm not sure if this will work for this is a charged topic and things I'm asking for here may be personal and make you feel vulnerable. Anyway lets give it a try .

@Outer NOT the topic of this thread.

Who said that Jordan Peterson is the gold standard? Is there even a gold standard for personal development? For me personal development was always in the spirit of this quote my Bruce Lee: Peterson has lot's of things that are useful and also lot's of things to discard. What is what depends on where in your "journey" you are.

That's not only redpill in a nutshell, but the dynamic of the other side as well. Both the female and the male perspective here are basically saying: "look at us, we suffer and they don't." And when then examples are presented for how the other side suffers too the reaction is: "yeah they might suffer a bit here and there but WE suffer way more!". Thats me/us vs them - on both sides. Both sides assume that the grass on the other side is greener. There's value in the female perspective for men as is in the male perspective for women. But not to use it to argue against the other side to validate your own suffering but to understand that we're all in this together! We all suffer. Life is suffering. When you understand that the other suffers too and is not that perfect, ideal, privileged... person that you assumed he/she was, it opens you up to see that we can help each other. Then this whole interaction becomes about giving instead of taking from the other. Looking at it this way makes you way less needy which I guess makes you as a side effect more attractive .

Thanks a lot for the suggestions

@Emerald Interesting overview. Do you know any good examples of stage yellow feminism (books, videos, people...)?

That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying

I agree with you here. It's a similar case as with the militant vegans where I left this reply: It's also a similar case to blue religious people talking about god and love and compassion and altruism (the class christian values) but then go to war, go on crusades, burn witches... You don't "judge" them by their words here and say: "They talk about god - they must be turquoise", but by their actions, by the way they really see the world, which is more black and white, good vs. evil... I know this from my own past that I would preach the green values, because they sound good and seem right. And you want to be on the "right side of history" (which may be just another form of promised salvation in the afterlife). But what does that coun't if you don't practice what you preach. Here's a video where Ken Wilber talks about the radical left (and the radical right). He makes this point at around 21:20 (here he's actually quoting his interviewer but agreeing with him) I would even say it's not about how you act but more like what the "place is, you're acting from". Is it an absolutistic mindset, where there's your truth and nothing but your truth, or if it's an relativistic place, where there are many possible truths but none of them is absolutely true. I mean you can act enlightened and do everything an enlightened person does, imitating him, but that doesn't make you enlightened yourself.