intrastellar

@Emerald To make this clear again: I never said that women shouldn't have a right to vote. I didn't even question it. Actually I said the opposite a few comments below and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise or cause anyone here to feel threatened. And still I see some value in Elliots perspective to be open minded about it. I understand that regarding this topic you have more skin in the game as a woman than he or I as men but that doesn't mean only women can talk about it or can add value to the conversation. If you don't see any value there thats your thing but if you're not willing or able to have a respectful eye-to-eye conversation then it's better we have no conversation. @Serotoninluv The idea that women maybe shouldn't vote is simply an idea and I agree with you that it's a regressive one. But I think it does matter who promotes the idea because the person behind the idea provides the context to understand where it is coming from and where it could lead - the context in which the idea might be realized (or not realized at all because there's a higher idea that blocks it). Also in reality it's not always so straight forward to determine the degree of development of an idea - they don't just come with coloured lables ready to be ordered in a hierarchy.

@Serotoninluv @bejapuskas There is a difference between not caring about something and having dismissing something - it's like the difference between 0 and -1000. I wouldn't contempate bying a donkey to commute because I see there are better ways for me to get to work. But that doesn't mean I would dismiss the idea of using a donkey to get to work. I wouldnt form a strong opinion about donkeys and I wouldn't riddicule people who choose to use a donkey to get to work and call them undeveloped. I simply wouldn't use a donkey to get to work. And if some day someone tells me that he's always riding a donkey to get to work I wouldn't laugh at him but simply ask him why? And who knows... maybe he convinces me that riding a donkey to get to work is actually a great idea for me :). Or not. That is open mindedness for me. But dismissing something without trying to understand it first, which means understanding why it is true for this person at this time and place, is closed minded, is a contraction in your consciousness and a reaction against it.

@bejapuskas Why do you think so? What does open mindedness mean to you?

@bejapuskas Again - thats besides my point. I'm not here to argue if women should have a right to vote. If you want my opinion on this the short answer is a strong yes - men and women should have equal rights. And I can understand that someone questioning that might feel threatening to a woman. Im talking about open mindedness. It's easy to be open minded if it's in line with your ideals but not so easy if it threatens your self interest or agenda - but it's valueble nontheless. But you won't get any value out of something that you're reacting against by riddiculing, demonizing and assuming the worst.

Being open minded necessarily includes being able to doubt and question things that seem obvious - even things like womens right to vote. That doesn't mean he actually wants to take that right away from women. You just assume the worst.

You assume that Elliot is trying to oppress women and their right to vote. I don't necessarily think he is. And I didn't say "Women fighting repression for the right to vote" is equivalent to "men repressing women and their right to vote". I said questioning the value of 'the accomplishments of feminism' follows the same rationale as question the value of 'being alpha and getting what you want': The idea that what you want and what you need (or even what's best for you) is not necessarily the same.

That's beside the point.

So open mindedness is only good if it doesn't interfere with your or your groups self-interest or your ideology? Aren't you two preaching open mindedness all the time? And now you're ridiculing it because you don't like the direction it could lead? Eliott Hulse in questioning the value of - let's call it 'the accomplishments of feminism' - follows the same rationale that was used here earlier to question the value of 'being alpha and getting what you want':

A truely beautiful and simple example. Warning: If you havn't seen the movie yet (or don't remember it anymore), watch it first!

My suggestion for your first book on such a challenge: "How to read a book" by Mortomer J. Adler and Charles van Doren.

I know what you mean. In german these concepts sometimes seem to sound silly and to miss the point. But why is that the case? Maybe thats a trap. Maybe contemplating these concepts only in english prevents you to make the connection to the concepts you use in everyday life, which is in german? I mean maybe thinking those concepts sound silly in german i really a preconception towards those concepts that you internallized from your environment? And maybe switching languages from time to time can give you more perspectives on what something is or what to contemplate about it. For example "What is consciousness?" You may contemplate it a while and then switch to german and ask "Was ist Bewusstsein?". And suddenly you realize there is the word "sein" in "Bewusstsein" (in english "sein" means "being" and "bewusst" mean "conscious" or "aware"). So you might wonder what is the connection between consciousness and being? Can there be being (sein) without consciousness (Bewusstsein)...