White

@stevegan928 steve, here is a proper explanation of the green level. And here is yellow

No Steve. It's green. Keep reading for a full explanation of what yellow is and how to transition.

"The first half of the trajectory – from Symbiotic embeddedness to Achiever independence -- fosters the increasing separation from the newborn’s union with the mother towards the discrete, self-sustaining adult identity with clear boundaries, an self that is capable of making reasoned decisions, postpone gratification and pursue meaningful goals and purposes. It is this self-governing Achiever that is often viewed in the modern world as the fully developed “adult.” The second half of the trajectory – from Pluralist to Unitive -- represents a step-wise deconstruction of the sharp and artificially created boundaries towards an ever deeper identification with all that exists. The second half can also be likened to an ongoing individuation towards a more holistic, full-bodied, and integrated self that is fully aware of its interdependence with other systems and one that can take a perspective on its fundamental non-separateness. This movement can be usefully described in having two layers. A) The general systems stages which comprise the first differentiation and integration – from the Individualist-Pluralist to the Strategist stage. B) The second differentiation and integration – from the Construct-aware to the Unitive stage. The latter two replace Loevinger’s Integrated stage (I6 or E9). It is likely that Loevinger could not conceive of a self-identity with fluid boundaries because it was not part of her psychometric frame of reference. She may also not have discovered this kind of open, non-delineated self-view because it did not occur in her samples. To her, the concept of later stages and ego-transcendence belonged to the “stratosphere” (personal communication 1998)."

@Joseph Maynor Not quite. I stand by my original statement..Everything up to and including orange is constructed from society. Green and onward is a self/other construct. That's why green and above are called "post-conventional" stages.

@Joseph Maynor when I cite clinical data then I'm not fooling myself or you

@Joseph Maynor ok.. That's ok You also think Joe rogan is yellow. So the jury is out.

@sarapr read the data. Yellow gets enraged at social injustices. It's mission is to solve the problems that 1st tier couldn't. Not through morality but through understanding how human beings work

@Joseph Maynor Joseph he had some integral capacity but he was also uneven in his development. I think he never really inhabited yellow fully. It's a question many people ask about Steve: was he integral? Nobody really knows. I would say no, not really.

@sarapr Hi Sara. Yes you are correct. If you like you can read here a clinical discription of what it means to be yellow from the interior. This data has been compiled since the mid 80s by researchers such as Rob Keegan and Susane Cook-greuter and Jane lovenger using sentence completion tests. Your intuition is correct, after green exploitation is no longer an issue.

Yes i agree. Your stage is not a problem. But it can become a problem. As long as you see that when the time comes and you are ready to transition then you are going to be ok. Get stuck at green is where it becomes pathological and the "mean green meme" as Ken Wilber puts it, takes over. Getting stuck at any stage is a problem. As you can probably see already that blue adults think like children. That's a problem that yellow can fix, yellow recognises the importance of all stages but does encourage growth by meeting people where they are at. That's the difference between green and yellow.

@MarkusSweden it's going to be easy because yellow is just pluralism on turbo charge. You still keep all your green but you just don't believe that all perspective are equal anymore. This doesn't mean you regress to marginalizing, you still value opinions and perspectives, but green needs to grow up in a way and realize that red can't be reasoned with: red needs a tough leader who can harness some bad consequences if reds behaviour gets out of line. Red can be utilised for its contribution to society if it's managed correctly. Yellow doesn't expect blue to try to show initiative like it assumes now. Blue wants to fit in, be accepted, say all the right things and seek a higher authority. Green hates capitalism because a central tenet of capitalism is that people should be able to pursue the career they want and reap the benefits. Greens communist tendencies would rather level the playing field and make orange pay for and sustain the less privelaged. Therefore undermining orange and it's ability to make exceptional strides in developing technology, science and industry. Yellow accepts the need for experts and progress and capitalism. Yellow understands that capitalism is going to have to reform to yellow standards if it is going to be able to deliver as orange also has a shadow side - the reason the West is rich is because we need the 3rd world to exploit. Green didn't have a credible answer for that problem. Yellow does. The evolution of green IS yellow . Green interprets yellow according to its own filter however and doesn't understand how yellow is able to fix all these systems to make it work in harmony because green is too attached to itself. Study spiral dynamic and do inquiry and you will come out of green. It will be messy as all stage movements are, but embrace the suffering.

@MarkusSweden the real beauty of green is that it's the first stage really where there really is an individual person there and not just a social facade that's infused with its culture. Green is a beautiful stage on the developmental ladder. It's not all bad. You can't really individuate unless you inhabit green properly. It's the downside of that deeply personal aspect of a person who understands them selves so well they also cannot bear to see another person marginalized that creates the problem of postmodern deconstructionism. Greens very strength is in the end it's weakness.

@MarkusSweden Markus here is a discussion here about how each level was created in the we space in the past and is already accessible to you. But you don't get a free pass, you have to go through green to get to yellow because each stage is built upon the previous stage. An analogy is you can't produce smoke without a fire. You can't have organs without cells. Yellow is made of the stuff of first tier.

@Vipassana sugar coating sugar-coat verb gerund or present participle: sugar-coating 1. coat (an item of food) with sugar. "sugar-coated almonds" 2. make superficially attractive or acceptable. "you won't see him sugar-coat the truth" Let's assume you're not referring to frosting cakes and that you tale sugar coating to mean the second definition here. Making things seem attractive. See, when you get to yellow you understand that these things are not delusions, they are true. Not absolutely true but they still have a utility. Newtonian physics has not been abandoned because of our advances in quantum mechanics. On a certain level objective reality is still true even if at the atomic level there are actually no objects. So nobody should see orange or blue or any colour as complete delusions. They are true for that mind that is only developed enough to understand it. We can't force people to step into third tier witnessing if they have not developed enough to remain there. Yeah a non dual experience is possible, we all have them, even babies, we enter the non dual state in deep sleep. It's not as important as our psychological development and how we create our maps of reality.

Also, observe the vegan movement. All they do is try to convert people to their ideas. That is their main purpose in life, to spread veganism. It's clearly acting from a blue place, leaders are orange and they use pluralistic ideas without really knowing what pluralism actually is.

@Vipassana nobody said don't put the idea of awakening out there. Just do it intelligently and meet folk where they are at. He needs to let the Zen master shtick go, we can't just go around shouting wake up to people as if it's Blue medieval Japan. People don't resonate with that anymore and seeing as this is a materialist based op Leo should respect that level and meet it where it is .

@Rilles rilles I'm glad you brought this up. Because true green doesn't preach an ideology. It doesn't believe in ideological positions. It sees that all perspectives are relative therefore true. So green kind of sits and atrophies because it can't decide what's more important because it doesn't believe in hierarchies in any form. But the sad thing is it doesn't see that it's own perspective is a perspective and that it is imagining itself on top of a hierarchy of values. To get society moving toward that green has covertly preached their ideology . So you might not think you are preaching but to inhabit green you have to preach an ideology because you're making the green statement even if you're not consciously actively trying to change others.

@Rilles im also talking about the green meme. The green meme is not a person, it's a mental position. Consider that the context for any discussion on memes

@Rilles i agree. But like Joseph said we can't take it too literally. I'm talking in broad generalisations just so we can speak about it. If I were to addevery nuance of how I feel we would be here all day. I use absolute terms as a tool, I don't believe in absolutes. That's what happens when you transcend blue but take the parts of it that are useful.

@Leo Gura there is a point. Without our stories and ways of structuring experience we end up in mental insitiuations. You don't want that. People need to evolve slowly at their own pace. Just telling them to wake up is bullying. Have we collectively learned nothing from spiral dynamics?

@Leo Gura you need to meet people where they are at dude. Jeez

I would even go so far as to say that the majority of vegans centre of gravity is blue because most them just blindly follow dogma rather than do their own fact checking / reality checking. They subscribe to the videos and don't even question what's being said. Ever read a typical comments section on a vegan plant based YouTube channel? It's nothing more than an echo chamber with a few individuals peppered inbetween. The leaders in the plant based movement / veganism are at least critical and sceptical. So at it's core veganism is orange but the movement itself is blue. This happens when all movements take off into the mainstream. One of the problems green has created is that we now have a lot of blue centre of gravity trying on pluralistic and scientific ideas. Green says to blue: "you can't be blue, try to think green and you will be ok". Green really is the great evil of our time.

@stevegan928 you're not projecting. Joe sees veganism as an ideological cult (which it is). Joe understands that veganism is not science based but is using science to back a propaganda campaign. However his own ketogenic diet isn't science based either. Joe again uses science to justify his own dietary preferences. Vegans see right through that of course. Joe and the vegan community project the same shadow on to each other. Veganism is not green, it's a mix of orange and unhealthy green ideas. But it's not true green - green thinks that all perspectives are equal because all perspectives are relative, therefore no position need be defended, therefore all hierarchies are false. The performative contradiction of green is that it DOES NOT SEE that it's own worldview is a perspective and that it places itself at the top of a hierarchy. Green is the biggest hypocrite in town

Yes yellow does still have a need to convert people. But it does it more intelligently by adjusting to the fact that red, blue, orange and green need to inhabit their stages fully for them to be healthy and useful for society, but ultimatley yellow wants to pull evetyone else upto yellow. Turquoise sees the limitation in even getting people to change at all.

@electroBeam I like shadow work. The ability to take an adult perspective on childhood events and reframe them in a positive light. Nice work dude!