from chaos into self

You can never prove that objects don’t exist without being perceived. It is implied. But you can’t prove it exists either. What a dilemma I swear the perceiver exists! But it appears to be no object. But I perceive and I am. This just leads to the question what am I? edit: I am consciousness. All experience is consciousness. The perceiver is illusory, does it even exist? I am the perceiver, and I exist. But I am no object, Unless, I am every object..... to perceive is to be a perceiver.

Object can exist without there being consciousness.

Why do you assume the perceiver can’t be a perception? Of course you can perceive the perceiver. Perception is all there is!

@The0Self you’re saying there is no existence. But then, what’s with all this isness?

I thought about this more and aren’t I the observer? And I exist because I am being? I am isness, I am. That is existence. No separation between the observed and the observer, they are one and the same, but I am that perceiver and I am existence. I am not a physical object, but I objectively exist as isness.

This is the answer. There is no object that is the perceiver. It is an illusion; the perceiver is not really there. There is only perception; the perceived. the experience. the perceiver is imagined.

This confirms that Moksha has no pov but is moksha a figment of my imagination or a figment of javfly’s?

Hm well said. I only know my pov. But you seem quite adamant that you have a pov. From my pov you are just text on a screen. You are the figment of my imagination. How does it feel like to be imagined by me? I bet it feels like pov. Nothing I say can tell you that I am pov. You can only trust that I am based on my expressing it. You can’t verify my pov and I can’t verify yours.

1. God didn’t choose to be one and not the others; god is all of them and experiences all of them. 2. Time is illusory. Death is illusory. 3. Maintaining every person is pov.

I’m listening to the news. Not by choice but because my roommates have the tv on. And I’m thinking, are the words belief? And I say no, it is meaning, a name. The words are a name for a meaning. It’s tricky because belief is there too, but meaning is prior to belief. The name is a pointer, and understanding what is said is just a name. It’s not belief to understand what’s said. And that’s weird. You’d think it would be belief. And there is belief there. If I name a rock rock I also believe the rock is there. But the name is not belief, it’s a pointer. Meaning behind the name is not belief.

I see, thank you

@Nahm is awareness really aware of awareness? Awareness is aware of direct experience. But is that really what awareness is? You can be conscious of nothing. It’s tricky to pull off but possible. That is as close as you get to being aware of awareness imo. Just a belief but I think awareness is prior to experience. You can only experience experience and cannot experience awareness imo. But again that’s just a thought. Not the truth. At the end of the day, I am as I am. Direct experience is king. Edit: I keep rereading this post to try to spot if I got it wrong but no I really think awareness cannot really be aware of itself for direct experience is not pure awareness. Direct experience carries a meaning that is beyond awareness. Something illusory. Direct experience is fabrication, not awareness. I have never felt myself to be aware of awareness; I have only been aware of direct experience. Edit 2: my being is prior to everything I experience; I cannot experience my being for it is emptiness. Nothing is there to be experienced.

The body is direct experience. The mind is belief; ego. Both are “real”. But the mind is illusory. Ego is illusion. Only direct experience is truth. But be careful because mind is insidious and slippery; ego shapes direct experience with beliefs that slip under your own awareness. You want to know what the universe is? Go out and touch it; hear it. But keep in mind that beyond direct experience lies interpretation. Belief. Ego. You don’t know the universe but you can feel its aliveness.

I am prior to I am lol

All I know is that I am sometimes directly conscious of other people and animals. It may be belief that they are real, but direct experience speaks for itself imo. If I think they are just belief, then I must conclude that I am a belief as well. Go no further than “I am as I am” the rest is interpretation. Not truth. And as an ego, I hold beliefs. The challenge is to transcend the ego but what does that even mean? You have to do the work. As long as you’re trapped in solipsism you’re trapped in the ego.

@Javfly33 you are right that it is belief to think there are others. But it is also a belief to think you created others and they are just illusion.

It’s the dream. The dream separates reality. Forgets that it is god. Blinding itself from itself.

I believe it’s foolish to assume your direct experience is all that exists and nothing beyond direct experience exists. I don’t know how to prove that others exist, but it seems foolish to think that I am not imagining myself. I believe I exist because of my direct experience; but it is only direct experience that exists and not the more abstract self it implies. to think that the others I witness are more false than my own self is arrogance. Belief that life is real. Once the present becomes past it is a story to believe and not truth. It is not I the self that dreams others, it is Brahman that dreams myself as well as others. my separate experience of myself is the dream. There are others in my dream and I am as real and as fiction as they are. Atman is what I am directly experiencing; but to think that Atman is all there is is to mistake Brahman as the dream. “My” direct experience is not the limit of Brahman.

I got two things out of this thread 1. believe nothing 2. consciousness is prior to belief.

@nitramadas you’ve got me convinced it’s good but it’s @Leo Gura you need to talk to about this. Wonder if he’ll lend you an ear

@nitramadas a tier two sub forum would make a lot of sense. I wonder tho if stage 1 users could resist posting in it

I’d totally want to read a conversation between tier 2 people.

That’s what you believe. Reality is happening now, get carried away by it. All you can do outside of the now is believe.

It’s safe to assume everyone else experiences this too. This reality you experience is not reserved for you alone. You are a wave on the ocean. But you think you are god! How silly! You’re falling for the illusions of separation.

Consciousness is the screen on which direct experience lies. Nothingness is the screen in which the universe lies. Are they one and the same thing? Or is there a duality to it all? Only belief can know.