from chaos into self

Who am I, I am the experiencer, the perceiver, I am presence. Is it wrong to label? I know there’s no object that I am but am I not that which perceives the world?

I don’t get no self. The idea that I’m not this, not that. If I am not, then I am separate, and dual. Me and reality as two. I say I am reality. I am this, I am that. Isn’t that true?

Lol this realization makes me feel ill. I’m dizzy.

Thanks @Leo Gura

Maybe there is no “I” but isn’t there me-ness? This body, these thoughts, are they me or nah? I didn’t really identify with them before but this awareness that’s here has more awareness of the me than it does of others. I’m in this room and I hear my housemate watching tv in the other room but I don’t see what he sees or think what he thinks. Isn’t that separation self? My mind and my body?

Thanks for the replies

So “not this not that” means that I’m not separation?

Thoughts are Truth. Just like the tree you see is Truth. It is a part of your perception. But thoughts being true or false is only a belief either way. I’m sure your thoughts want you to believe they are true; but whether or not they are true is relative to understanding. ultimately they are neither; thought is just thought. take ‘em with a grain of salt

I don’t understand what this example has to do with noself. Are you saying noself is recognizing that I’m the ocean and not the wave?

Even so I have this limited experience of it happening. I’m conscious of my life and not yours or Leo’s. It may be a dream and even deterministic and nondual but there remains this bundle of fun that is me. Self exists. I exist. It is an illusion of separation; yet I am responsible for its survival. Maybe that locks me into ego; so be it if it does. But that doesn’t really answer my question on if noself is dual. I’m sure I can find an answer despite my paradigm. Is noself dual because noself is to say I’m not this, not that? That implies a separation from all things, that the existence of I is different than the dream. I don’t get it, maybe I’ma fool. I don’t know

I don’t really know this but I think awakening is basically partial. You aren’t enlightened but you are more awake than you were before. Also you can have awakening experiences that are fleeting. It’s why people celebrate psychedelics. Someone who awakens can still seek enlightenment. I think someone who is enlightened could still seek deeper consciousness. But the seeker you and I are dissolves. Seeking becomes a different beast. I’ve seen Leo question what he could do as if there were more to find. But I assume he is enlightened. Plus Leo has spiritual practices. Is that not seeking? leo said that there’s a scale of ten thousand when it comes to consciousness and that most people are a 1 2 or 3. That implies enlightenment doesn’t end seeking unless you fool yourself into thinking you’re done.

I think this depends on your definition of enlightenment. You can define it that way; I think that’s what others do. But I don’t know. I like to pursue awakening because awakening is more accessible. Who knows if I can become enlightened in my path.

@Moksha @cuteguy thanks! but is noself separate from self? I guess talking about it is dual. But if nonduality is true, duality is not separate from it. Separation is the same thing as god, no? God is everything, even separation and unconsciousness. Maybe this is a silly question; noself is ultimately not exclusive of self. Not this not that means transcending it. You are it but you also are not.

Be conscious. And then keep on being conscious. It’s that simple. Can you do it? I don’t know about the deeper states of consciousness tho so take it with a grain of salt. Just when I meditate I try to be with my awareness and my presence. I wander from that but notice and return. It feels quite awake to me even if I struggle to access that in daily life Can you do it? That’s the awakening I pursue. Awakening experiences are fleeting. Don’t confuse that. What’s sought after is a change in your day to day life. Awakening in small steps is still awakening

Is this a belief?

the body having experience is consciousness even if it’s being experienced unconsciously - it remains to be consciousness. and anyway for someone to know they experience requires conscious awareness of it, no? I agree with this for sure. But it seems a little silly to say since all we experience to exist is consciousness. It’s a given, basically. consciousness is prior to god? sounds legit to me. god is an idea isn’t it? Well of course god isn’t an idea ultimately, but belief is belief and idea is idea. it’s automatic; we are consciousness experiencing consciousness. someone on the board recently said , there is a tree and both you and your friend are aware of it. The tree has conscious of its own; otherwise why would it return after looking away? The tree that falls without anyone there to witness it is still witnessed by the nature around it and by itself. Unconsciousness as a concept is very relative. Unconsciousness is just a lower level of consciousness. Not an absence

it seems to me they’re saying that no conscious experience is divine but that can’t be the case imo; all consciousness is the divine. but her ideas are not irrelevant; there is merit to seeking noself; utter unconsciousness; as all self is separate. To chase divinity through no self is something worth doing. but ultimately all self is god just as much as noself is. You can find divinity both ways.

Desire is not essential to life. When you are caught in desire, you suffer, but you are right that desire is not always suffering. But to let go of desire is a step towards awakening.

I am watching. I am perceiving this scene.

So it’s okay to label myself as inner silence? Or must I strip away even labels?

@Moksha I’m conscious of the cars as they drive by. Is that consciousness me? I say it is. The car may be impermanent, but the conscious experience is something that never leaves. It takes form of a car, the form may be impermanent but the conscious experience remains despite taking different form. That experience is me, no? Ultimately I am this. This experience of the world. I strip away everything but I’m left with this view of the world. Every form it takes is mine, my view. I exist as consciousness, but I am separate from other views. Like yours. Yes Ultimately the true self is all things, no separation, separation is illusion, but this experience I live is what is me in the small way. Maybe not two, but I’m ultimately responsible for this body and these experiences. If I don’t care for my life no one else will. I know that It’s said I’m everything I’m god, but I just don’t see it that way. I’m not going to believe in something like that. Until I have an experience myself, I will assume I’m this experience. Permanent ad this, despite the impermanence of form, consciousness is constant and it’s my view of the world. I am self. I am the car driving by, the conscious experience of it. Form is impermanent but I am every form I take. Sorry this post is so long.

So you’re saying I don’t exist? That makes no sense to me. I clearly exist, this is like the only thing I’m sure of. It’s prior to “I think therefore I am”. I just am.

It’s as significant as the rest of your perceptions, or perhaps, imaginations. notice that it’s not nothing.

Well is it? Is all of reality truth, or is it all imagined? What do you say?

This is a mindfuck