Victor Mgazi

Yeah, I had already read it but I still don't get it. Is that what the monks said? It is was for drawing attention to the issue? Well if so then wow, talk about taking extreme measures. I'm sorry, but I still think that's a bit insane .

What? And did he mention why? Was he trying to make some sort of point? WTF?

I hope so. I wouldn't want to "believe" that I've done it (died).

@Shin OK so, letting go of my beliefs and identity, that's how I die. But how will I know this when I've done it, will it be obvious or something?

Then how can I die if I was never alive /existed? Explain this to me like I was a ten year old (simply)

To all the seekers out here, what is it exactly that you’re seeking? To all the questioners out here, what is it exactly that you’re questioning? To all the teachers out here, what is it exactly that you’re teaching? To all the students out here, what is it exactly that you’re learning? What is a dance without a dancer, And what is the dancer without the dance? What is a song without a singer, And what is the singer without the song? What is achievement without an achiever, And what is the achiever without the achievement? What is an invention without an inventor, And what is the inventor without the invention?! What is art without an artist, And what is the artist without the art? What is a thought without a thinker, And what is the thinker without the thought?! What is creation without a creator, And what is the creator without the Creation?! What is an experience without a experiencer, And what is the experiencer without the experience?! (This could go on indefinitely) The above questions aren’t really there to get answers, they are simply there to help trigger something intuitional and peaceful(a state of rest/silence). Depending on your current state of mind, this could bring about…a meaningless (or silencing, not sure which word is suitable) realization. Trying to make meaning out of meaninglessness will only leave you in some sort of a loophole, like a paradox and I hope you see that. Allow the heart & mind to dwell on this for just a small period of time while referencing to the above queries, don't try to resist anything - go with the flow. What is sight without the viewer? What is sound without the hearer? And so on... P.S. Wish you luck with your pathless path.

@isabel this is pretty much an open debate so it would help if you stated whose opinion/ideas you are referring to. What I am trying to make understandable here is that... taste without the taster, or the taster without the taste leaves meaninglessness or that which we can't communicate. But don't cling on the word, meaningless, I'm only using it for the idea we are discussing. For what is meaningless without meaning??? Nothing is a term that refers us to the concept of non-existence / the absence of everything. But what is nothing without everything ? Can you see how both of these terms depend on each other for them to have meaning in the first place. The term, non-duality, means something. But that which is non-dual is meaningless. If you are expecting to arrive at something meaningful by pursuing it then... Good luck.

@Anna1 I got a warning from Leo, and basically because I didn't title the thread, I was told it would be removed. So I decided to move everything here before it got removed. I am still discussing it with you guys, nothing has changed. I don't know what you mean by not quoting properly but I apologize for any flaws in the quotes that I'm not aware of. I am still using them to carry on from where we started in the previous thread so... I don't quite understand the shady thing about it. I'm glad you mentioned it though, it's good to have clarity in things like this.

Language is just a tool for communication. These words serve no purpose other than of reference. They refer us to acts, concepts or whatever holds identity. The only problem here is that language itself is dualistic in nature hence we struggle to communicate that which is non-dual. Whenever we try to do so, we'll be trapped in some sort of loophole like a paradox. The Liar paradox is a suitable example to use when elaborating on this. Everything I say is a lie Try to make sense or meaning out of this statement and you'll find your self in a vicious cycle of message haunting. And so, I believe it is with meaninglessness. Attempt to make meaning out of that which is meaningless and you'll find yourself trapped in that seeking cycle or loophole. Here's another example of what I'm trying to get to here. Is it the father that makes the son, or is it the son that makes the father? Dwell on this. Can we say there is a father in the absence of a son, and can we say there is a son in the absence of a father? Take a look at this one. Is it the Creator that brought forth the creation, or is it the Creation that brought forth the creator? Can you see how the creation becomes the creator? For how can we say that there is a creator in the absence of a creation? My only true question here is that can we, seekers, accept silence as an answer?

(excuse me for not titling this, to be honest I found it to be pointless) To all the seekers out here, what is it exactly that you’re seeking? To all the questioners out here, what is it exactly that you’re questioning? To all the teachers out here, what is it exactly that you’re teaching? To all the students out here, what is it exactly that you’re learning? What is a dance without a dancer, And what is the dancer without the dance? What is a song without a singer, And what is the singer without the song? What is achievement without an achiever, And what is the achiever without the achievement? What is an invention without an inventor, And what is the inventor without the invention?! What is art without an artist, And what is the artist without the art? What is a thought without a thinker, And what is the thinker without the thought?! What is creation without a creator, And what is the creator without the Creation?! What is an experience without a experiencer, And what is the experiencer without the experience?! (This could go on indefinitely) The above questions aren’t really there to get answers, they are simply there to help trigger something intuitional and peaceful(a state of rest/silence). Depending on your current state of mind, this could bring about…a meaningless (or silencing, not sure which word is suitable) realization. Trying to make meaning out of meaninglessness will only leave you in some sort of a loophole, like a paradox and I hope you see that. Allow the heart & mind to dwell on this for just a small period of time while referencing to the above queries, don't try to resist anything - go with the flow. What is sight without the viewer? What is sound without the hearer? And so on... P.S. Wish you luck with your pathless path.

"Indeed As a path implies an “i” that walks it. As the path and “the i” are one and the same movement of time/self. The means (path), and the end-goal(truth-enlightenment), are really one and the same movement of “i”-time. As all of the above are the movement of psychological time(psychological becoming), and imply the projection of the goal(truth), as if it was some-”thing” fixed-static." "There is just smelling, tasting, touching, hearing, seeing...thinking/feeling. but no, actual,.... smeller, taster, toucher, hearer, seer, thinker, feeler that is "doing" any of it." And how are the above conclusions(a result of observation) so, if there is no observer to observe the queries? This is what I would like you to look at. These replies we are making - what meaning can we make out of them if we're to believe in that no observation by any observer actually took place. Then what is the difference between the replies and some meaningless (nonsense) text? Can you see what I'm trying to get to here?

Basically you are asking how something arises from nothing. Correct me if I'm wrong. And I'm asking you for the origin of your question because the origin of it is the same origin of perceptions. Once you learn about the origin you will realize that actually nothing is arising from anything. The arising itself is an illusion, something of the dream. Just think about what I'm asking you so we may have a ground to stand on and I can finally walk you through this dream world. I don’t want you to believe in anything I say blindly.

What is the origin of your question? Where does it come from?

Hi there. I'm just curious about the difference and what each side is interested in. Especially what career the left brain people would most likely pursue compared to what right brain people might want to pursue. Please share your thoughts ?

First off, how do you define perfect ? For me this would be an existential question. If you look at something as simple as a rock being a rock, having considered the qualities required for it to be a rock, such as being abiotic then you would say that the rock is perfectly (being) a rock. Note that there's no effort coming from the rock, it's perfectly being a rock effortlessly. And this is true with any other object, there's no effort being made and yet it's all perfect. A perfect tree, a perfect river, a perfect cloud... Really the list goes on. But can the same thing be said about humans? Well, again, depending on your definition this is debatable but from my point of view the answer is really simple. Yes humanity is perfect as it is and effortlessly, once the ego transcends - you too will see this because you would have let gone of your judgmentality by out growing all these stages from the popular spiral dynamic model. You will see everything as it truly is without conceptualizing. So, is God perfect? Only you can answer that question having considered your own concept of a God and of perfection. I think everything is perfect and that's just me being perfectly me without effort. It's a pathless path (effortless)

"What is the absolute?" What is now? Take that shift in your train ? of thoughts ?. See what comes up... Then ask what those things are. The absolute is a groundless concept, nothing major about that because basically everything is a groundless concept. When you said that you saw everything as nothing I imagine that you're referring to meaninglessness and if so then that experience alone should have shared some light on what the absolute is...and that's nothing ( not of information / existence) but the mind will ofcourse cling to that concept because it's in its nature to be informative, that's how we function. We always want to make sense of things, to know things while this truth is not something to be known or experienced. It's simply something to be...what it is...as it is.

It's normal for you to try and make sense of enlightenment/awakening and God but try to understand...the mind can only know it's own creations (stories, concepts, thoughts). You want to be certain of things so that there is progress in this work which again is all normal but don't grow attached to this, if you ask me the opposite would be the result, you clinging less on this work because it's only a dream. Enlightenment is a thing of the dream. No one has ever had the right or wrong idea about it because it's the creation of the mind. Mind can only know it's own creation.

There's no such thing as after enlightenment. No one ever becomes enlightened, yes ego transcends and all but that's pretty much it. One may have super natural abilities but at that stage those things will just appear natural for you. It's quite a slippery thing to grasp but once the realization occurs you will understand. Enlightenment is a thing of the dream along with all other meaningful things and once you awaken to all of it...there will be no one there to testify. It's truly a pathless path because right now you are the absolute but mind wants to acknowledge that whilst this is not something to be known but simply conscious of - which is already so. But go ahead and seek. It will all not matter at the end ?. PEACE

Awesome post. The mind can only know it's own creation (inventions) .

Enlightenment being a human concept is a concept . #no attachments!

If you wish to correct your own mistakes then do so, there are plenty of techniques/methods you could try (obstacles exist only in your mind) But if you are asking how not to let this affect you then I'm pretty sure that even you can answer that question by yourself.

Nothing is occurring. Occurrence itself is a thing of the now Maybe your question is what is now and the answer would be it is what it is as it is , any ideas on what now is would be the finite attempting to embody the infinite .

@starsofclay nothing is doing anything.

The enlightenment or realization occurred, now what? The ego is still a present phenomena so is there more enlightenment or anything else maybe? Just curious.