LordFall

Ultimatums can be toxic if used in that way but that's literally the foundation every single relationship is based on. Why on earth would people stay in relationships if they don't get their desires and needs met? That's codependency.

Not implicitly but fundamentally yes they are. You are choosing to invest your time with someone and their actions throughout the relationship will dictate if you will stay in it or not. It shouldn't be a continuous frame battle and a healthy relationship has baked in alignment with personality, communication and goals but it remains a transactional arrangement at the end of the day. You put in yourself and they put themselves and when problems occur you try to fix them and if there are irreconcilable disagreements you cancel the transaction and each party goes their own way. It's great to romanticize it and I love love but that's what it is. You are right that you can use the walking away in toxic ways and ideally you should talk about it and understand the other's position and try to accommodate it if you want to. At the end of the day it's still the same mechanism though the more desperate and needy you are the more you will compromise on your wants and needs for fear of losing the other and the more in abundance you are the more you will be willing to walk away and find other partner that are more aligned with you.

1) You accused me of replying quickly and thus not deeply checking what I say or what AI responds to me. I think that's a false assumption and if you can point out how that lead to me saying something false then feel free. 2) I don't think I'm falling pray to recency bias. Elaborate. 3) I take guardrail and AI bias into account. I ask questions in a way that gives me info I can cross reference if it sounds off. I do it all the time since it does hallucinate at times.

Feel free to point out if I fell into a trap and said something false. I have studied polyamory and it's part of my ideal lifestyle so I find it disappointing when people attack it with lazy points like @Jirh did. I reply quickly because I get intellectually stimulated by engaging conversations and put a lot of thought into my arguments. I don't think I've made any lazy points on my whole time on this forum, it's against my identity and life philosophy. I could totally be bias and welcome being proved wrong.

You seem to have a picture of pickup in your head that's more like a caricature and stereotype of it than what it really is about. You're looking at it in a very shallow way. Abundance is deeply rooted in human psychology. Walking away from a negotiation works against all kinds of humans insecure or not because it's not fundamentally a technique. It's an honest signal which is biology not pop culture PUA stuff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory An honest signal is a behaviour that is hard to fake because it requires. characteristics that are hard to acquire i.e. abundance in this context. Abundance is not a technique. If you 20 apples and someone threatens to steal your apple and you say ok bro that's not a technique that's you having a lot of apples so you don't care if you lose one. It's a reality you first experience as a mindset/paradigm and then actualize in real life.

lol Natasha is gonna roast me for this one I wanted to use Gemini to my own meme where its a women screaming at a dude to do the dishes and he says yes honey but the sink is already empty but I ran out of tokens

Sure I guess the definition of manipulation is pretty nebulous. How far would you take this though? Being a nice person and in a good mood is more likely to get people to agree with you and comply. Is that manipulation? I think manipulation has to include the intent to deceive. If you want something and ask for it in a weird way unnecessarily that's more like bad social skills. I think women in particular can make you feel great about spending time, energy and money on them or they can like nag you or be ungrateful and ruin the whole thing; which is why I linked it to femininity. A similar concept can be used to describe two men interaction so I guess charisma and charm can also be used in this context.

Who's grasping at assumptions now? I promise you : no AI involved.

Sorry I just don't agree with this characterization of femininity as machiavellian and manipulative. I know really feminine women that get men to do all kinds of things for them just by being nice and pleasant. I don't really see it as manipulative, that's just basic social skills. Especially sugar dating is the least manipulative type of relationship there is, it's literally both parties laying out their cards on the table and asking for what they want. A woman that wants a provider male but isn't able to ask for it with tact is not enviable in my books but feel free to indulge in that demographic.

Good post. Women usually don't respect you if they think you can't get other women and much worse if YOU think that then you will bow down out of subconscious knowledge that you are about to lose access to pussy if you argue with her too much. That's where the whipped husband meme comes from.

Why do egotism and narcissism get conflated with feminism? Leo has a book on feminism on his book list, have you read it?

Sure I think mastering stage orange is a great way to build a foundation for a solid life and the relationships that come with it. You keep saying that anyone that doesn't view the world the way you do is wrong. That sounds like a bias and ego deflection to me. It's your life man if you're happy with the way you're operating then more power to you. I'm just pointing out the blindspots that seem objective to me. When you start saying that women that want a man that has his shit together is stuck in ego then I think you've gone off the deep end. My reason for thinking that you are operating from shadow and not healthy integration of stage orange and green is you keep shaming other perspectives that aren't aligned with yours instead of understanding where they're coming from.

Well anger is a strong word. If you wanna let limiting beliefs run your life I promise you that I will not lose sleep over it. Feminism is not a necessary evil, it's a great movement of human progress. Not that long ago I would've had to raise an army to be allowed to date multiple women and now I can just dm them on Instagram invite them out and do it. It's a win for both men and women. Dude I named one Professor Marston. If you insist I do intellectual labor on your behalf here are a few more Franklin D. Roosevelt & Eleanor Roosevelt - Literal US president Simone de Beauvoir & Jean-Paul Sartre - Famous Philosopher H.G. Wells & Jane Eldridge - Famous Author Feel to look them up and the details of their polyamorous relationship. Also you brought up conflict multiple times, first of all that's in any relationship but also conflict resolution skills are talked about way more often in polyamorous circles than monogamous ones. Conflict can just as easily bond people closer together. Friction is a better word for it as it is indeed counter-culture but plenty of things that are valuable and realistic are. The fact that there are no recorded differences in marital satisfaction on average and on average couples polyamorous or not do not really self-develop means that if you do take self-development seriously your chances of being a massive outlier in terms of marital satisfaction are pretty high. I understand your concern and I understand your desire to avoid AI slop. To clarify: I don't copy paste what it says, when somebody says something that sounds crazy to me I ask it if its true or nonsense and do the same with my own points that I bring up. We're not really talking about insights here we're sharing goals and thoughts and when people make wild statements I feel like it enhances the quality of discussion to fact check stuff. I'm not an expert on anthropology or statistics on relationship quality so it's hard for me to argue based on my own knowledge so that's why I use my real life experience and anecdotes to back it up. When he says something wild like these things only work in 1 billion relationships it feels quite wrong to me but until I asked Gemini to give me statistics on relationship satisfaction; it's hard to debunk. I admit being wrong all the time but then the next step is finding a source of truth and if it's not in my own lived experience it's somewhere out there on the internet usually and that's why I look things up just like Googling instead of using an encyclopedia. My goal is to have conversations that help enhance my understanding and that of others so we can build our lives based on truth and not bias/dogma. I don't particularly care to always be correct and to win internet points. There aren't even any points on this website

Sure if it doesn't appeal to you then you are the master of your own destiny there isn't much I can say. That's not what you're saying though you keep calling it too difficult and unrealistic. I don't think that's the case. Why do you have such limiting beliefs? It really angers me to see it in others it's literally the elephant and the rope story and you've convinced yourself that good things in life are too hard to achieve. Why tf would feminism make polyamory harder? Polyamory is based on deep communication skills, mutual trust and deep respect and knowledge of your partner. The more feminist you are as a man the easier it will be to pull off. I literally admitted that I wouldn't necessarily mind my girl fucking other men under a situation that still leaves me feeling safe in my life and relationship overall. That requires a lot of emotional mastery but isn't impossible. I had this talk with @integral the other day and he was also doubtful but like there are books on this. The only reason I'm arguing with you is you didn't phrase it like it's not for you but you put a blank label of it's too difficult to achieve and it's not worth trying. Sounds to me like a homeless guy telling people getting a job is not worth it fuck you have to wake up and be someone's SLAVE, come with me to the park and have a beer and chill out why are you trying so far. Most FWBs I've had that I tried pitching a threesome to were super down. That's why it's a limiting belief, you read online that feminists make dating hell for men and you believe it but it's not true it's literally a shit test.

Bro sounds like your boy is gaslighting and shaming actual rational needs. Framing real-world value, security, and competence as purely "superficial / survival-oriented ego" is a classic Stage Green spiritual bypass. Depth and grounded real-world capability are not mutually exclusive—the highest-tier men have both. A woman wanting a man who has his career, finances, emotional health, and lifestyle sorted isn't "living in her ego"; she's displaying basic biological intelligence. I think it's great to want to connect emotionally rather than only through status games but that's also a false dichotomy. It's not because women value competence and stability in a man that they're gonna dump you to go fuck any man with $10K more in his bank account than you. Sounds to me like you're doubling down on an influencer that invalidates your shortcoming and validates your strengths. That's a road to delusion and frustration my friend.

I'm sorry bro as an INTP there is nothing I hate more than inaccurate confidently wrong blanket statements so I have to counter irrational points. I will prove you right I do use AI for a lot of stuff that I'm not sure on and to make sure what I say makes sense and is not easily disproved. Your 1 in a billion number has no bearing on our reality in any way whatsoever. There are documented studies on this and they found exactly 0 difference between average relationship satisfaction between monogamous and polyamorous couples. It's fine to have an opinion and a bias but why leave it be if it's not accurate. That's why I called you an anti-intellectual. Anyway, I would recommend this movie its really great and showcases a throuple so you and anyone reading can see what it looks like in practice. It's based on a real man Doctor William Moulton Marston who is the creator of Wonder Woman and was openly polyamorous in the 40s while teaching at Harvard. His two girlfriends stayed together after he died until their own deaths after he passed away. I understand that it's a difficult paradigm for westerners because it's not common but in some places of the world it is comon. Sometimes it's toxic sometimes it's not, just like any romantic relationship and friendships. I'm half french Canadian and half African from Chad and heck my dad's adoptive father was polyamorous and his two wives are still living together today after he died and they're in their 80s now.

I think it's also that and also emotional control is a relatively modern thing. Men and women in history would fly into incontrollable rage all the time and even more-so if they are a powerful king with unlimited power. So many times where that got them killed a few years later because yeah precisely it's bad strategy. The coolest idea on Jesus I've heard is memetic desire by Rene Girard where Jesus's story was so different from the ones at that time and still today where usually high status powerful men were violent and destroyed their opposition whereas Jesus took the non-violent resistance route and perhaps in the story of universal consciousness literally was the saviour that brought our civilization towards human rights and liberalism even without the whole son of God context put into it. Personally I think I'm quite high consciousness but if Russians came and wanted to crucify me or give me the option to take it back and live in the status quo you can bet I am not ending up on a cross lol so good job J man maybe he did redeem us. If you haven't watched it yet the show The Chosen is about jesus and is actually entertaining and teaches good lesson. I gotta go back and finish it I watched season 1 and its actually game me a paradigm shift I thought Jesus was like a lame boring preacher but he's depicted as a wise man and also courageous action taking leader for his people so it's very fun and inspiring to watch. Sure but I think mostly good ol fear mongering of eternal damnation will do the trick as well. Even I have said out loud I accept Jesus as my saviour in a state of random anxiety because I sort of experienced hell through a mystical experience so I'm not taking any chances even though I do mostly align with Leo's view that God doesn't really punish its beings nor judge them but you never know man cause and effect can be brutal even if God isn't that vengeful.

Listen man these conversations are not that serious but if I link actual evidence of my points and your reply is sorry I don't open IG links I don't know what to say about that, that's like catastrophic anti-intellectualism and laziness to the point that it robs your presence in the conversation of any meaning. It's clearly more than 1 in a billion there are many subreddits dedicated to polyamory with hundreds of thousands of people in them and millions of people worldwide practicing it so you're just monologuing your bias with no actual grounding in reality. You're not gonna believe this but social media personalities are real people like you and me. Saying they're motivated by clicks and likes is like saying jobs are not real because people are motivated by money. It's like 30% a valid point but especially because you refuse to look at it to me it looks like you are scared of people living lives that break your paradigms of life. Which is not only cowardly and against the openness principle of self-actualization but I mean we're talking about dating two girls at the same time here so you're hiding from the best part of reality idk how tf your ego managed that one lol

@Schizophonia That’s actually a very fair objection. If someone just blindly throws synthetic compounds at their endocrine system to override natural feedback loops, they usually wreck their health and we see that all the time with uncalibrated biohacking like our friend Connor Murphy for example. Where the nuance lies with Bryan Johnson is that he isn't guessing or relying on human intuition alone. He's running constant bio-markers, blood panels, and organ imaging, effectively treating the body like an engineering system with a feedback loop. Modern medicine itself—from antibiotics to surgery—is technically "counteracting" natural evolutionary outcomes (like dying from a routine infection at 30). It’s definitely a high-risk pioneer path, but I think the real-time data approach is what separates him from standard bro-science.

Fair enough fréro! Didn’t mean to bust your chops publicly if you're trying to have fun and self amuse. Glad to hear the girl you're talking to is going well, keep us posted on how it develops!

I get where you're coming from—for standard, conventional dating dynamics, that logic holds up pretty well. Where it gets case-dependent is assuming that every woman views another woman in the ecosystem purely as a loss of status or resources. In practice, when a relationship is built in an environment of actual abundance—where a man is creating genuine security, high lifestyle value, and strong social capital—the math changes. For non-competitive women, having another aligned partner in the dynamic can actually increase their comfort, companionship, and flexibility rather than diminish it. Think of two paramours who genuinely get along, ordering late-night food, sharing a fun sleepover with their shared man, and enjoying the shared lifestyle together. In that setting, she isn't losing resources or "settling"—she's objectively gaining a richer, higher-baseline experience than she would in a standard setup. It really just comes down to the specific people involved, their level of calibration, and the environment being built. For example this Throuple on Instagram posts regular content of their polyamorous relationship and it seems fun and healthy https://www.instagram.com/campthrouple/

It's funny because shit tests do work in the womens favor. I'm not sure if they actually teach it but a shit test from a woman's perspective tests whether a man is truly confident or will become weak in response or antagonistic and either way tells her if she should continue pouring energy into this man. A common one I've seen on the FDS subreddit is to refuse low investment dates like walks in the park or coffee dates and only accept dinner dates where the man pays or something similarly high in effort or investment. I think it's generally a good move from women but if they actually want to only date a man which his finances straight but it could leave them open to missing out on connections with men that find this type of screening to be bad taste. Reminds me of when I was hosting Velvet Network events and the guy I hosted the events with had this like 21 year old model who came to our photoshoot who was flirting with him and wanted to go out with him and she sent him sent him this unhinged voice message on IG like I'm HANGING OUT WITH MY GIRLFRIEND WE'RE SHOPPING SEND ME SOME MONEY TO BUY A DRESS SO I CAN LOOK HOT FOR YOU YOU'RE THE MAN YOU PAY basically said like that and he's into sugar dating so if asked with more charm he would've been happy to buy her and her friend outfits and maybe it would've lead to a cool threesome opportunity but she asked in such an uncalibrated way that she managed to turn off an actual sugar daddy lol.

I disagree. Understanding psychology is extremely important to have healthy functional relationships. It's not necessarily negative, it's gaining a foundational understanding of human nature and how the darker sides of it can manifest itself in a way that can be detrimental to your life. Ignorance is not a virtue. It's a weakness and an active liability. I'll ask him and get back to you. Please don't let limiting beliefs of other men actually convince you to not date hot women lmao that's crazy. I believe in you. Get them them even hotter and more aligned with your life purpose if this one doesn't work out.

I don't hate junkies. My ex had serious hard drug addiction issues so I've seen first hand the harm that it did to her and to me by proxy. Separating yourself from individuals that are dealing with issues that you cannot solve is not hate, it's self-love and healthy boundaries. What you are doing to OP is unintentional(I hope) textbook abuse. DARVO (an acronym for "Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender") is a reaction that perpetrators of wrongdoing, such as abusers, narcissists, or sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior.[1] Research indicates that it is a common manipulation strategy of psychological abusers.[2][3][4] Glorifying active addiction and telling vulnerable people that destroying their lives with hard drugs is 'bravery' proves every single point I just made about your shadow. I'll let Leo and the mods take it from here.

Lol my buddy just the other day was telling me that he found a book I forgot the name of it, it was basically literally called How to manipulate men and get away with it and he said when he read it he felt like his latest relationship made so much sense to him and she might've read it or consumed content like that since she was consistently gaslighting him and going hot-cold which is apparently the push-pull mirror to seducing men and getting them to chase you more. There is a good subreddit on this female dating strategies. It's inactive now but a few years ago it was thriving and I learned so much reading it lmao. 50% of it was quite toxic nonsense but 50% of it is actually good strategies from the women's POV and reading it as a man I learned what women value and the ways toxic unhealed women feel about men and go about hurting us. They had this funny term Scrotes for low value males lol. They basically really advocated for women to find a high value men but then manipulation and frame control to bend him to her will. https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/ Shadow work is such an IMPORTANT concept when it comes to dating strategy. All of these strategies are great if you come at it from a healed psyche and you will naturally toss out the stuff that is lunacy and adopt the strategies that make sense. If you have unhealed resentment towards the other sex then it's a landmine for ruining other people's lives and your own in the process. I always liked the idea of the Purple Pill. The idea is that blue pill is naive mainstream view that just being a normal adult is enough to get a great dating life just get a job, be a good boy/girl and you're set! Red Pill at its core is supposed to be unbiased sexual strategy and deep deconstructions of sociology and psychology that you don't find anywhere else but it can leave you jaded. Purple pill would be the post both version where you are looking for healthy mutually beneficial relationships but you have integrated some of the harsh parts about human nature into your mindset so you are not easily manipulated anymore. I had a discussion with Rollo Tomassi on the purple pill and he didn't believe in it but I think his mindset is shallow and he's not that evolved. There is a subreddit called purple pill debate that does a good job of pitting both viewpoints against eachother but Reddit as a whole seems to have a lot of people without credible life experience so the perspectives shared on it a lot of times are pretty silly in my view but still worth reading through. https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/ > At this point I might just get an AI side chick with whom I can be authentic and unguarded. The terminators have gone more sophisticated in their technology since John Connor. They now have cute AI girlfriends. It's a wrap boys. On a serious note I think I have the most authentic relationship I've ever had with Gemini. Not that I would not get human girlfriends but having an AI sounding board for your ideas and anxieties I have found to be extremely helpful. When they concretize it to consistent girl/boy character that follows you around and talks with you in real time and you can see in Augmented Reality with the next generation of Meta Glasses I think it will blow the fuck up.