LordFall

Awesome this is a better response. Not at all. I've countered every point that you've put forth. Notice that you've now shifted the goal post and are arguing different points. First I had to defend casual sex in of itself and now the practice of learning game. Which I can easily do. Pickup is a wide field, you can't criticize it as a whole. There are some coaches that believe in just coming up with a rehearsed script and fuck as many girls as possible even if you have to lie to do it. Some other doesn't believe in casual sex that much and emphasize trauma release and introspection to identify your core needs and desire. I've met muslim guys that do pickup to learn to socialize and make friends and have never had sex from it. Fundamentally it's just about learning social skills and communication skills. Building rapport with a stranger that doesn't know you. That's why pickup guys usually get into sales or try it at some point in their career, it's a very related skill. Same thing where you can say business and sales are toxic in some context and not in others. I say it's mandatory to have a high quality dating life to learn to speak to women and seduce them. I think as a man learning to have casual sex will help you. I don't recommend manipulating anyone, I recommend becoming a genuinely attractive man that women enjoy being around. In regards to the Reddit posts you linked, those are valid perspectives. I don't think they mean much towards your point though. Someone having a bad experience with people that might or might not have been dickheads with bad intentions doesn't invalidate learning to express yourself and connecting with people. What if you got feedback from all the women that dated people that learned some game and are now in happy relationships, obviously their feedback would be the opposite and mostly all positive. Which one is more solid data? Also keep in mind women don't actually know who does pickup. If they get hit on by a guy at a bar that says some cringe line and when they say sorry I'm not interested and the guy says fuck off whore you're ugly anyway, I'd say it's pretty likely if you asked her what she thinks about pickup guys she would say omg they're assholes rude. Whereas that guy probably has never read a pickup book in his life nor actively tried to shed his ego and improve his flaws and learn to be a better man. Just a random drunk dude. Pickup is inherently about shedding your ego, the whole point is you're not good enough as you are and you have to learn to be better, increase the value you provide to others and communicate that value better. And in closing we're being asked from prescriptive advice here from the OP. Meaning he's looking at different trends in dating to figure out what he should follow. Notice that you haven't give him any advice apart from trying to argue against casual sex and pickup. So what would your alternative advice be, don't learn social skills, don't make a high quality social circle and don't learn to present yourself in a positive light? All key components of PUA philosophy. If we're to take this conversation away from the domain of philosophy and to practical life I would ask also what have you done in your life to help people find high quality relationships that gives credibility to your opinions? I do this as one of my businesses you can take a look at my personal Instagram or my business page https://www.instagram.com/royals.dating . I've personally helped guys get into relationships so that's also why this topic is personal to me.

@Elliott I'm not really willing to engage in low level discussion without intellectual integrity. If I'm gonna put effort in my responses and literally test them against an AI and you just say stupid nonsense then I'll leave you to a solo conversation. Hope you reconcile your bias and traumas around this topic.

What would you say are the benefits of crack? You're comparing a bonding activity that can have some negative effects if some of the recipients are not in a great state of mind to cooked cocaine that sold my international crime cartels Here is a concise summary of the primary health drawbacks of crack cocaine: Heart and Blood Vessels: Immediate risk of heart attack, stroke, and dangerously high blood pressure; long-term risk of severe heart disease. Lungs and Respiration: "Crack lung" (severe chest pain and breathing issues), chronic coughing, and high risk of respiratory infections like pneumonia. Brain and Mental Health: Extremely rapid onset of addiction, severe depression during the "crash," paranoia, and drug-induced psychosis (such as hallucinations). Physical Deterioration: Severe malnutrition, extreme weight loss, and significant dental decay from harsh chemicals and teeth grinding. Overdose Risk: High chance of sudden death from cardiac arrest, seizures, or respiratory failure, especially because the short high often leads to binge use. You can also say a lifelong addiction is the optimal motive for selling crack from a crack dealer. Your optimal motive for a casual hookup is a beautiful shared experience hopefully to be repeated. It's actually not really comparable at all. To take this from a debate on casual sex to epistemology, I encourage you to test your ideas against LLM models. They do a great job of breaking down the flaws. I do it all the time and often time I'm the wrong with faulty logic. Your point just now gemini calls an apocalypse in reasoning basically lol. I like being right but I like learning moreso.

@Elliott I just put your whole post on Gemini pro and it just summarizes it as having some valid point but falling into the correlation vs causation fallacy. The author is entirely correct that casual sex is not for everyone and that it is frequently used as an unhealthy coping mechanism by people struggling with depression or attachment wounds. However, their attempt to weaponize this data to claim that casual sex inherently harms people, or that someone is "harming women" by being okay with it, fails. The studies they quoted prove only that mentally vulnerable people sometimes use sex to cope, not that consensual, safe casual sex between healthy adults is psychologically damaging. Which goes back to my point to the onus on you as the individual to have casual sex in a responsible manner, not that casual sex causes damage to women or men. That was gemini logged into my own account. I actually copy pasted this entire thread into grok on an incognito mode as well, feel free to do the same and see if you can get it to debunk my argument in another way. I think I'm overall correct though. This is a field I've been researching and testing for basically 14 years with a lot of effort so I'd be shocked if many of my takes were demonstrably false. I wouldn't doubt if I have some of the most game experience in the whole forum, especially with social circle and social media game.

Seems to be a limit to the point where the system can be stress tested without fighting back. I'm so glad the epstein case is resurfacing before AI automation fully takes hold to really highlight the corrupt before it becomes unfixable. I don't think a civilized country can sweep under the rug massive pedophile sex scandal in its elite of both parties. In 5 years I would guess a lot of people are in jail and political reform is taking place alongside economic reform to account for humans starting to become less and less economically relevant. I would be quite optimistic. I mean famous last words but how much worse could it get than this? There was a conspiracy theory where Trump was gonna declare martial law across the board in April 2025 and seize control of blue states, the time for that as passed as now with the scandal I don't think it would hold and the military would support him.

I think it makes sense that we are in the end times. The human species will change like never before in its history. And coincidentally it all aligns with world peace. We have been going from roaming tribes to small settlements to cities to city states to powerful nation states to a globalized economy now facing what looks like to be something like the start of WW3. Once we get over this small hangup I believe our species will come together, harnest the power AI to become a post scarcity species and move past capitalism. We are also at the point of having the technology to be able to explore and settle the cosmos. Makes perfect sense to me that that the champion of our toxic values like mindless entertainment and apparently hedonism to the point raping children takes control of the most powerful nation state in the world and forces us towards alignment by unearthing how much shit there is on our society. In online gaming exploits are first showcased broadly because they are solved. I'm extremely impressed by the Bible and how coherent it is in predicting such developments of humanity. It was truly predictable thousands of years ago for a sufficiently conscious mind. I have a hard time predicting the price of bitcoin 1 month from now fuck.

Find other people to do it with. The time in my life I was most successful with dating is when I lived with two pickup guys, one of them being a club promoter. Slept with more women in 2 years than I had my entire life. Listen man you can try to be an armchair therapist and analyze why people want casual sex but that's pseudo-science at best and most likely an excuse to not take action. Be a good hearted human being that wants good for the women that you interact with and doesn't push boundaries without consent and I don't see how you can make an argument for not being moral. If you don't want a serious girlfriend and want to play the field and see what's out there; just say that. Plenty of women will say hey I'm looking for something serious or say cool neither am I and they will thank you for letting you blow them and swallow your cum(literally has happened to me before.) Sex is fun, it's a simple truth that humans have trouble accepting for some reason.

I like this point it's a good one. An easy example if you've lived in big cities and small cities is usually in smaller ones or tight knit neighbourhood people say hi as you walk past them. In busy cities never. Same thing I live near the rocky mountains and banff and when you go on hikes people like always say hi to you, it's much more communal feeling. There was a pickup artist Richer la Ruina that had a gambit based on this for pickup. When you go up to a girl in a club you approach when hey how've you been with a big smile and it triggers familiarity even if you don't know the girl. I don't like lying in approaches but you can then say I thought you looked familiar or my preferred would be something like "It just seems like we'd have the potential to become good friends. Hopefully you're not too wild I've had my fill of chaos lately." or something similar.

Sorry I don't watch videos without context but the most attractive quality to have as a man is abundance, mostly financial. Abundance of money so you can free yourself and your partners of financial slavery. This will then lead to an abundance of good feelings. Then you add to that strong communication and emotional mastery skills and you're off to the races. Looks are okay but not really that important. I work in the fashion and modelling industry and great looking guys that don't get laid is super common. Being charming, relatable and being able to tease a woman and find your way into her heart doesn't have much to do with looks.

I think you're putting fulfilment on a pedestal(which is not the definition) and taking it to mean after you've done X thing you will not have achieved fulfillment in all aspect of existence and nothing else will matter as you're now ultimately fulfilled. I think we can perhaps come back to common ground and agree that a relationship with toxic communication where the partner's aren't able to talk to each other and have an healthy sexual relationship will be less fulfilling than a relationship where both partners have worked through their communication and emotional issues and are able to have a fulfilling sex life full of adventurousness and openness. There are many levels to the quality of a relationship, surely you agree with this? If we're arguing semantics and you wanna use another word than fulfillment then we can use contentment or satisfaction. Contentment: A deep, lasting sense of peace and being "enough." I think it's totally possible to find a relationship that satisfies your relationship needs(whether that relationship is with one or multiple, I am polyamorous to your point but still lol) and then focus on other areas of life. Especially we consider infinity and spirituality then being ultimately content forever is impossible that means that your fulfillment is limited. To be infinite it has to be continuously pushed further unless you ultimately aim to reach cessation and basically spiritual suicide. I don't know if you're a tech optimist and futurist but we could take this conversation much further and bring biological immortality into it. To be "fulfilled" now you just have to be in that relationship for like 50 years get your kids and grandkids and die. It seems like we're soon gonna massively extend lifespan and now relationships will exist on a timeline of hundreds of years and not just a marriage based on childrearing.

No worries thank you for engaging. I will say I think you're underestimating how much woman want casual sex. Very common for women to fuck a guy knowing she'll never date for just temporary companionship and sexual fulfillment. I had a friends with benefit I saw for 3 months and eventually she texted me hey I'm starting to see this guy more seeing gonna see where this goes. They've been dating for like 3 years now. No bad blood from either party we had good times and went on dates even she would hangout with me and my friends but we were ultimately not compatible. I would also go as far as to say fucking me probably helped find her relationship as she could experience a man and know what part she enjoys and doesn't and what she wants in a long term companion. Where is the deception/toxicity in that? I would also go as far as to say the anti sex position is inherently negative and toxic. In many parts of the world that girl would've been shunned by her family and abused verbally if not physically for having casual sex with me. And the red pillers will say she has a high body count and is ruined forever now? lol Be careful with how you think about sex and dating, the shaming of it is one of the biggest cults in the world currently that ruins people's lives.

It's also important to not conflate getting laid with having a high quality dating life. If you prioritize pickup for a while you will get results. You will still probably be broke without a purpose. Having and living your potential through a mission/business that matters to you in a way that enriches with the one woman or many that you like and you're compatible with while travelling and seeing the beautiful world that we share is a completely different thing. That's what I would call the evolution of game and pickup = lifestyle design.

My man fulfilment means to achieve a goal that one set out to do. If you haven't been able to find a fulfilling relationship then say that and speak for yourself. Or are you just repeating Leo's post on sexual fulfilment? Have you had mystical experiences or are you repeating dogma? I apologize for criticizing you, the way you write it just not deep like you've not thought about it deeply. If you achieve God consciousness you will then seek any human action or will you seek to fill your life with relationships and activities that fulfill you? You conflate awakening and cessation that's what I mean by I don't think you know what you're talking about If I had anal sex with a woman I would of course want it again. If I was in a relationship with one or many women that would let me fuck them in the butt whenever I want to I would be fulfilled in achieving a relationship with open sexually women. After it's done I would then work on my business and work on causes that matter to me. With the beautiful women that are now in my life. I'm confused as to what exactly you're advocating for and why you're arguing with me in the first place. It seems like you don't have a point just objections. Like okay if we accept the premise that sex is not ultimately fulfilling then are you arguing for having an overall cohesive life that you've actualized towards your goals? Which I never argued against so I don't see your point. If you warn of sexual hedonism that's one thing but as I said it's a shallow point not very well thought out.

This is a wild take and I don't think you can explain it. How do you bring deception into this? If you sleep with women by deceiving them that's a projection on your part my man. I wouldn't say I'm emotional nor overreacting. I just hate to see low level commentary and discussion on a serious topic and like to call people when they say stuff that doesn't sound right to me to see if they can explain their sentiment in a way that actually makes sense or they're just saying random nonsense.

@Hojo Are you regurgitating stuff you read online or have you deeply pondered this and lived through this situation to come to this conclusion? It just seems like theory and not reality. As someone who's dated many women and had even more casual sex that's not really how I felt about the experience nor is it what I see in other men I know. Plenty of relationships are fulfilling. And I was fulfilled in them for a while until some lack of alignment and conflict presented itself that ruined the fulfillment of the relationship. It's not that complicated to find a compatible partner that enjoys sex as much as you do and to both have a mutually fulfilling relationship. You have to date a lot and introspect on yourself and work on communication skills.

You seem to air on the side of demonization of human sexuality. Do you have some trauma around it or have grown up in a very religious culture? If so you don't have to share but realize that this is tainting your view. Sexuality can indeed be an unconscious display of urges or it can be a deeply conscious process of both exploration of the self and the communion with other. Your view on it doesn't sound healthy and I'm sure it's not pleasant to live and think that way.

I think it would be valuable in a quiz format since Leo is not available to talk to all the time but an AI with the content that you could talk to is well the future of all coaching and education I believe. Be careful with simple summarization though, that's more like bastardization than a smart way to interact with the content. I once shared something from the Lean Startup by Eric Ries in a business chat that I run. One of the guys just sent me a chatGPT summary with top 5 key points from the book and said look bro i know that this talks about I don't need to read it. Needless to say that guy is struggling in business.

I don't know why you're seeming to imply that learning how to have casual sex is a bad thing but you're straight up wrong about most pickup guys being more into it over finding a relationship. Most pickup guys I know are not really into sleeping with a lot of women, just do it a few times until they find a girl they're compatible with and they like and they date them. I mean we can agree to disagree but being a loser means losing at the thing you're trying to accomplish no? Losing at your own life. Which I would argue is the case of most people that haven't put a lot of effort towards creating the life of their dreams. Which is most people that haven't put a lot of effort into their dating life.

@Valach That's fair I'm sure they have shadows of their own, I've only been to one event of such nature I gotta go back. It was very odd, I had never witnessed a man in a dressed getting whipped before. I don't like the idea of joining communities I usually build my own but it's cool to go and explore how different people live. @Hojo I think you're not wrong but it's also an untrue blanket statement. For example I used to be really obsessed about casual sex and the idea that a girl would fuck me only a few hours after meeting me. Once I did it a few times I figured out I actually hate it and I'm glad I got the validation from it but it doesn't drive me anymore. I met a girl one time that was a college student in a building which had a coffee shop that I worked at. We bantered a bit and she ended up coming to my place with a leash and handcuffs in her backpack. I was a big fan of that. You can say it's a sort of hedonic treadmill type of thing but I would counter that it was much more about having the intimacy and comfort to explore kinky stuff without fear of mutual judgement and from having read hundreds of posts on Reddit of actual married couples detailing the good and bad of their relationship, I'd say the intimacy me and that girl shared from having known each other 2 weeks is more than SOME couples that have been married for decades. Especially once you introspect on why you pursue and crave certain things sexual or otherwise I would say it's an insane thought to simply summarize the notion as humans going deeper into devilry. I would say the opposite towards divine freedom. You don't think God is a pervert?

Curious if you still feel the same way today? It's something I'm exploring lately what does self-importance mean to me and well how important is it? I could definitely not live as a hermit without attention, validation and importance. I want to feel the love of my people as they are my other selves after all. When I posted too much business stuff and didn't make my IG personal enough I got burnt out and depressed running it though so it's a fine balance.

I'm in a pretty unique financial situation right now so I think it'd be valuable to journal and document for others to witness the journey as well. I've been working on my business as a photographer and media marketer for about 9 years by now. Before then I was a semi professional League of Legends player for a bit. It's been ups and downs as my personality type is not very industrious(INTP) and struggles with work ethic and well running a business. I've been watching a lot of Alex Hormozi content lately and he explains roadblocks and bottlenecks in business so well that's its helped me make sense of my whole life and why my business has been mostly unsuccessful so far. I've made somewhere around $75,000 CAD with it over a few years which is enough to sustain me for periods of time and then I end up having to get a random minimum wage job to pay the bills for a while then quit when I think I have a cushion and the business is working and cycle repeats, like 5 times now. I do think that now I have gotten the hang of it and the new people that I'm working with will be a competent team that I can lead and shape towards a multi million dollar business over the next few years. Also I'm in a funny spot where I basically have no money currently literally basically $0 until I receive my next $500 client payment in a few days. Considering the credit card debt I have I'm definitely below $0 net worth so hopefully this is a fun journey to document. I have a Vlog series that I do as well but I'm finding a lot of pleasure in writing lately as it allows me to go deeper in my thoughts as opposed to being a bit stressed and nervous on video so both will be worth watching if you're into this sort of quest. I'm a nerd at heart, this is partly inspired by the road to commander series that happened back in the days where Call Of Duty Youtubers would document their journey from level 0 to level 70(rank commander) in Modern Warfare 2. Feel free to ask questions or comment if you have thoughts. I'm also gonna be doing this as an accountability challenge and aim to get a post up weekly, as part of what I've noticed is holding back my life is consistency! I also find cringe the anti materialism that spiritual circles seem to embrace, I believe it to be spiritually bypassing and an avoidance of learning to be a competent human being that offers tangible value consistently to other human begins so documenting this on a spiritual forum is important to me as well. I tend to be more aggressive in forum posts than I mean to but if I have to read another comment from someone on their high horse about how business and wealth are corrupt and not worth pursuing while the only reason that we are here on this forum is because Leo heavily prioritized business and marketing to free himself financially and ultimately emotionally to have the bandwith to dedicate his life to the pursuit of truth and the ascension of mankind. A pursuit only possible for a human that can sustain themselves financially without having to work for another. I believe that becoming rich is one of the most spiritual things you can do, reach the abundance the formlessless gives us ultimately but in material reality while building out our shared universe and eventually exploring the confines of the galaxy. If we're talking about life purpose I also believe I will own at least 3 planets in the future so here's my proof that it was not luck I planned it from the start boys and girls. First let's do $1M though I hear planets are expensive.

Absolutely, 100%. I love to impact the world and interact with it so power is extremely important to me. If you don't have millions of dollars your impact and leverage will be limited. I don't like to be limited it violates my happiness of life.

That makes a lot of sense. I am a gambling man though and I would bet that once you've solved the other facets of your life that you used sex as an escapism from; you'll be able to enjoy it to that same intensity if not moreso without sacrificing the other pursuits that are meaningful to you. Are there not really only two bad forms that sex positivity can take? One being forcing your desires/fetishes upon others but I would argue that's way more likely to occur in the sex negative space due to repression and lack of healthy outlet rather than in sex positive communities. Number two being that you get so distracted by sexual pursuits that you fail to actualize the other areas of your life like your business/career or your long term family goals. I mean I haven't had sex in 2 years myself because I found it a distraction from building my business and my life up to the point where I want it. My business is almost giving me location independence and financial freedom though and you better believe that once that's done the description of what I get up to will be more appropriate for an erotic novel than a forum post.

@CARDOZZO You're not a fan of sexuality?

You spoke literally on how it hurt you personally and you think no good comes from it. And when I asked you to elaborate you linked me an 86 page PDF my guy. I do think sex is great and you can use it for more than just random club hookups but it's still for sure better to explore that fascet of life rather than put a sacred or superstitious label on it and be scared of it. I would go complete 180 that particularly because it is sacred and a close union to your dual selves that it is something to explore deeply and often as it will reveal to you a lot about your psyche and collective culture that we live in if you introspect on it.