Surfingthewave

@socraticstatic Yes I can relate ? welcome to the forum. Great to see a likeminded person here and to hear how you got here. I also like the tough talking, no shit attitude on here. I'm not much of a Teal Swan fan either. Be warned you can end up down rabbit holes of non duality and masculinity among other things. Just don't be like Alice and end up blindly following the ?. Enjoy.

@SamC You are valued and you are loved. This has to come from you though, not from others. Instead of seeing yourself valuable through the role you play in other people's lives (which you don't need to be) be valuable through the fact you find yourself important enough to express who you are and your truth. Someone actually posted something similar to the above on the forum and I thought it was beautiful. I could relate as someone who has been through trauma. Sending love ?

@Chew211 To fuck the world as you so describe surely you've got to play the game. And that's the problem. The OP was about winning, no? How do you win if the game is totally different. The rules have changed in the last decade - men (and women) need to keep up. Red pill thinking is absolutely an ideolgy, imo an extension of locker room talk. Truth is we all get a shock from the conditioning we have been fed over the years from media/education/systems/capitalism/dating etc. Men are scared as they don't know how to date/what women want/how to express themselves and women's needs/desires/wants have changed so radically. Was it Marilyn Manson that said keep people afraid and they will consume. (although now it turns out he is an abuser so maybe not so valid).

@RendHeaven @Chew211 So tell us, now is your opportunity. What are the Struggles men face? Interestingly no one had really taken up this thread. Do you think men struggle tto articulate as they don't want to appear vulnerable? I had to stop watching the video as there were so many assumptions made for both men and women. It is very hetronormative and plays into the male victim narrative. @Emerald you make some important points (as you have in other threads). Particularly about men having the space to be emotional beings. Women are able to do this naturally with friends colleagues. I think, in my opinion, men don't have this space to be open about self esteem issues and difficulties so it can manifest in other unproductive ways such as anger, toxic masculinity, low self esteem, low confidence, assumptions about women etc.

@SamC Hi there. Reaching out to others is a really important part of this work. What I sense (but I could be wrong) is you've allowed your trauma to define you for so long (as did I). When you start working on it you begin to loose the hold and identity it has over you. Keep going deeper into this work and you will come out the other side. The results you will see will astound you and you will know who you are.

Back at you! Good luck my friend namaste ?

You're still stuck in the materialist paradigm which stems from overthinking. There is such a thing as unconditional happiness it's called awareness. Do you have a meditation practice?

@Someone here You seem like you're suffering - lots of sadness /frustration/negativity in your posts? Perhaps work on that first and you may get to the root of why you're not experiencing happiness.

@Valwyndir I feel you have gone down the rabbit hole of total gobbledegook. I have absolutely no idea what you are expressing here, perhaps you just want lots of attention/aimless discussion? Some of these non duality threads are like strange loops, go round and round.

@Someone here I'm sorry you are suffering. Have you heard of Wu Wei? A state of alignment with the flow of life. Balance =Fullfillment. Fulfillment = happiness. Not minding what happens. Apparently Krishnamurti said this to his followers as a summing up of his knowledge.

@Valwyndir I think it's important to offer a perspective yes, and what you're offering is exactly how attached we get to certain perspectives. The perspective is still not real. It is still a story. If it helps you to arrive at the recognition of what is, then great. Just be careful of over complicating and over theorising. Walk away from all perspectives and see what happens. I don't personally have a paradigm of what Enlightenment or God is. I gave all that up years ago. That's the golden key. I had the key, but there is no door. I just relish in the what is. The what is, is, experiencing. No concepts, no stories. It's the most beautiful thing.

@Valwyndir Good examination of non- duality here but I had a few more questions. Who is the "you" you refer to in your questions? What do you mean when you use the word Enlightenment? What do you mean when you use the word "God"? How (experientially not theoretically) have you arrived at this perspective? You describe Enlightenment as a way of seeing. But perhaps place less emphasis on it's meaning and more emphasis on it as being or a Knowing. You are trying to describe the indescribable. Good attempt though.

Good thread here @Dancer @Chew211 Why do you think the male instinct is to dominate? Does this harp back to the hunter/ gatherer cave people times?

@juni Absolutely. Thank you for your beautifully written words. This perspective is very loving, harmonious and ultimately the basis of enlightenment. Yes rather than the view- "what can I get out of this relationship" the more conscious you are it hopefully should be how can we conquer this precious world together with this powerful love we hold.

When it comes to discussing dating and relationship issues on this forum particularly when it comes to sex I've observed many forum members gaslighting. It's important to discuss this openly to inform those who may not understand what it is. According to the source psychology today gaslighting is a psychological term that describes a manipulation tactic used to attain and maintain power over someone. I have experienced a man doing this to myself in the past because I am female. I was not aware of it at the time but was made to feel I was a victim and it was my fault. It is important to note it is also a form of emotional abuse. I think there are lots of you who could benefit from looking into this more as I have just experienced it in the last thread which was locked and I can also see it happening in another thread. It's important not be silenced over this. It's also important to note it's not just women that experience gaslighting. This isn't about being woke or cancellling anyone this about bringing an important issue to the fore. The MeToo movement was so powerful as so many women came forward to point out the abuse they had experienced. This left many men feeling scared to have honest and open conversations about what is acceptable and what isn't.

Thanks for sharing. I can relate to your story, it was 15 or so years ago but I remember having this real sense of fear on leaving. This was before I started all the consciousness work. I've started to realise the importance of breaking down and removing labels. Who are we to judge who's narcissistic/had mental health problems / trauma or not. Part of this work is the self realisation we are all just an assortment of feelings, thoughts, sensations, stories and memories, some memories are so traumatic it can seep into how we express ourselves and connect with others in relationships. Often intergenerationally as @tsuki describes. I agree with you about the forum which is why it needed calling out. I also feel there are some real enlightened folk on here so it's knowing the difference. Who wants to be right all the time? The world would be boring if we all were! But it's about knowing and self reflection. Lots of folk like the sense of self and feedback you can get from teaching others particularly when going through difficult things yourself. You've nailed it when you talk about vulnerability. It's hard for a lot of us to be vulnerable but there is so much strength in it and it is a massive part of this work. Have you heard of the work of Brene Brown? She is making waves in the world of expressing vulnerability.

@commie Sorry if you've been triggered @tsuki A good analogy thanks. There are also other ways children /people can process psychological traumas in relationships as well as denial (mental health/self esteem difficulties etc). It's hard to provide evidence for emotional abuse though when we're talking about the judicial system. I think women can feel not heard /etc nothing to do with victimhood and more to do with society today. Seemingly this is getting better though.

Great insights here @mandyjw Perhaps the abuser /gaslighter is resisting healing because it means facing the trauma that is subconsciously influencing and perpetuating the behaviour. @tsuki Thanks for these insights. You clearly know your stuff. The points about boundaries are key particularly when it comes to families and how this impacts on the child sense of self and value. I have experience of this. Why do you think the oppressor isn't aware of the need fill the psychological gaps? Presumably trauma /lack of awareness or a sense of control? Why do you think judicially women labelled victims in certain cases? I'm aware of lots of court cases where the woman is "blamed" for being the victim, again a form of gaslighting.

@tsuki Excellent analysis of gaslighting thank you. Particularly how trauma can be passed on. Your views on having victim mindset however: be careful as I think you're stepping into the realms of expressing assumptions about how a victim may feels. This is a very complex and individualised thing and shouldn't be linked so quickly with the experience of gaslighting. Summing up: As I become more conscious through this work I am aware of a previous experience of gaslighting (years ago in a relationship) which I wasn't aware of at the time. As it can be subtle and the person my not be doing it, it can be self perpetuated if the person being gaslighted is not aware and doesn't call it out. It can potentially be damaging for both parties involved so honest and open discussions need to take place.

Exactly and it's not for "someone else" to decide. Unless you need a psychologist or a professional to point it out as you are not sure.

@Dancer No it's not. It's about being aware enough to point out what that person is doing, and that it's wrong. Yes you do hold the power but often this power can feel like (this is important) it's taken away by the person gaslighting you by the way they do it (manipulation/humiliation/threats/ denial etc)

@Barbara I don't agree actually, if you've been manipulated, you've been manipulated - whatever level consciousness you are. @modmyth I don't think it matters whether you feel bound to it or not. I agree with your first point it probably isn't gaslighting and just a momentary thing in an argument. But if that person is denying the way you feel over and over and in essence undermining your self belief that's gaslighting/ a form of abuse, surely? In abusive relationships sometimes the person can feel stuck in it as they may fear leaving and the consequences of this (more domestic abusive rather than just being gaslit).

@Barbara I think you've made some good points about how to learn and grow from other people's behaviours and the importance of not letting it impact on you. This is why self actualisation is so important for relationships. If you hold a lot of self love for yourself and are aware of how you are in a relationship, particularly triggers, this can help. But for a lot of people this is difficult particularly if you have a very close bond with the person/love that person or there are "fixed roles" in the relationship and you want to help them to understand why it's wrong what they are doing. Often people can fear saying the wrong thing or fear that person leaving them.

@SamC Thank you for being honest. Good luck ?

@Etherial Cat I think it depends of the severity of the case. As you say if a person's needs are not seen, minimised or depreciated this could be a case of gaslighting. I also think it's the combination of this and the power exerted over the individual leaving the individual feeling like they've lost the ability to rationalise about the situation to see it for what it truly is. Gaslighting gets dangerous when it undermines a person's self belief. This is only measured by how someone feels and should not be judged by someone else.