FindingPeace

It also happens that people may choose partners that effectively re-create their childhood. So someone who grows up with dysfunctional or abusive parents or parent, may well end up with a partner equally as dysfunctional or abusive. Or even a role reversal to what the child experienced may occour.

This is a huge topic I've spent the last year or so contemplating. I don't have time to go into it all right now. In short, if it hurts, it isn't love. Love isn't a feeling, it's an attitude towards someone or something. The problem is that what people think of as love, isn't. And society and the media don't help with this one. Most people confuse love with 'like alot'. But more than that, the 'normal' kind of love is actually more of a 'selfish' love. You love something or someone because they serve your agenda in some way. They make you feel good, feel secure, feel loved, validated, approved of, give you attention, give you shelter....the list goes on. Of course the moment that person fails to meet you need or expectation then the love 'hurts' - because you are not getting what you want. Real, true love, is about acceptance. It is accepting someone for exactly who and what they are without judgment and criticism. It is caring what is best for them even if that comes at an expense to you. This is the exact opposite to 'normal' love. Normally, if someone's happiness came at your expense you would call them selfish. When in fact you are being selfish for not letting them be what they need to be. Real love is about accepting and appreciating the other person, without judgement or criticism. It is also accepting that maybe someone isn't good for you, without judgement or criticism. Afterall, just because we love someone doesn't mean we can accept them into our lives if they are not compatible with us. Doesn't mean we have to surrender or submit to them. I don't think many people truly know how to experience real true love without it being tinted by the normal every-day selfish kind. If you introspect hard enough you will see how selfish yours and everyone else's 'love' really is - how it serves their own agenda and how the love gets withdrawn when it stops serving that agenda. Leo has talked briefly about this in some of his videos.

It occured to me recently that it is language itself that has led to our ability to conceptualise and describe abstract ideas and effectively create all the bullshit illusions that we are trying to undo with self-actualisation. It would make an interesting exeriment to actually put a society together that has very limited or no language at all. Just like our ancestors. When I see other sentient creatures they seem so at peace with the world just going about their business of survival and reproduction. Whereas we go about our business full of neurotic thoughts and assigning value and meaning to everything and consequently suffering when those values and meanings are not maintained or our threatened. All thanks to our wonderful aquisition of language to allow us to formulate such concepts in the first place. I would go so far as to say that language is one of the prime causes of our suffering. Along with memory and a brain that can process abstract concepts.

As I've read posts around this forum I've got a good picture of some of the external work people are doing on a daily basis towards their self-development. But it strikes me that some people are focussing so obsessively with external work that it becomes a distraction from doing the inner work. I think it is easier to concetrate on external work because it is easier to create 'tangible' results and it also 'feels' productive. The problem with inner work is that the results are not so instant and can be far more subtle and insideous. There's no material demonstration of the work that's being done and so people perhaps don't feel like they are being productive. I've known people who believe they are doing plenty of outer work but from the outside it is obvious to see that they aren't really acheiving anything at all. It just becomes another source of neuroses. This is a dangerous trap to fall in to.

Just to add one other thing that bothers me about the question in this topic title: If they are you loved ones, then why are you trying to change them? Is that not contrary to the very sentiment of love?

@Simon Zackrisson Wtf are you on? lol I think this self-actualization has driven you nuts.. Good job I wan't taking it seriously then.. Somehow I think this thread has gone off on a random tangent..

Just because you have a specification for what you think would be your ideal girl doesn't mean that if you meet her you would have a successful and functional, lasting relationship. It's true that filtering out what you know you don't want will save you time and stress but it's also important to realise that metting someone that fits the bill isn't guaranteed to be any more sucessful. Values are really important. They need to integrate with yours. But it's extremely hard to discover someones list of values, beliefs and world-view from a few dates. It can take months or years. As for looks, they can change and they also aren't as important as you think. It's interesting when you discover that physical attractiveness is connected to how attracted you are to their personality and values. People you may consider less attractive can become very physically appealing when you fall for their personality - for who they are. To be honest, most people's 'specification' or standard that they set is very basic and superficial. Most of the important stuff takes time to discover. Bear in mind that people are often not authentic when dating. They're trying to market themselves, so they'll give the 'edited' version of themselves that they think will attract you. What I'm getting at is that having standards and idealistic specifiactaions don't really make a lot of difference to the quality of the potential relationship. People are complicated and deep beings. You can't sum them up in a body size, hair colour and general interests. There is far more to them than that and it's the stuff behind the scenes that will matter the most. This you only get to see over time and experience with them. And the quality of the relationship will ba as much about your psychology as it is theirs. Only thing I will say it that getting caught up in relationships that are not healthy for you can waste a lot of time (years even). Experience is useful but so is time. It's a difficult call to make. Importantly, don't become dependant on needing relationships. Become independant and that way you can be more constructive and detached from getting caught up in unhealthy relationships should they occur. Ultimately, there's plenty of time for women. A relationship won't fundamentally fulfill you on it's own. Sometimes our expectations of them are far grander than the experience itself. Keep working on the rest of your life. Because that's the bit that remains constant despite what happens on the relationship front.

You can't. Change has to come from within. For the person's own reasons. Even if you 'encouraged' someone and they did take some action, they would be doing it not for their own reasons but because you influenced them. This never works out in the long run. Who are we to change another person? What right do we have? Why do we think we know what's better for them than they do? It's a rather egotistical and also selfish thing to want or try to change another human even if we think we are doing for their own good. It isn't our decision to make. It is theirs. Noone is an expert on someone else's life except for themselves. Why do you want them to change? For their benefit or for yours? Change is personal. Noone has the right to influence another to change. If they want to change they will ask for your help. Don't impose your help on to them because you think they need it. By all means demonstrate the benefits of change. You can show someone the door but they have to choose to walk through it. I'm not having a dig at you here. We all do this, we all go around trying to change one another. Trying to change reality because we all believe that we know better. But we have to accept reality and people for what and who they are. It will only backfire on us down the road if we try to impose ourselves on to others. By all means show people the door, but don't push them through it. Edit to add: 'inducing change' in people is analogous to manipulation and control. Not a healthy thing to be doing.

This is my philosophy. If you can reach a point where you can be in totally acceptance of reality and at peace with it and yourself then there is nothing more to be done. There is nothing more to want or need, no suffering to be had and no action needs to be taken. It's the ultimate success in my book.

Rule 1. There are no rules.

I think dreams are actually the brain's way of running scenarios and preparing itself for taking action. We tend to dream about things that are on our minds. So our brains are trying to prepare for dealing with those issues. They're kind of like a simulator. Animals dream too. You can watch them twitching and jerking. Probably devising stragegies for running away from predators or finding food, or mates. Some research in to birds suggested that they practice singing in their dreams, getting their tunes just right. I don't think there are any deep, abstract meanings within dreams. If anything they are more of a reflexion of our anxieties or pursuits. I don't believe that they are symbolic or analogous to anything more meaningful. I see dreams as an evolutionary advantage - allowing the brain to reherse potential scenarios, see the potential cause and effect of situations so that it can be written in to memory and refered to in real-life when a real scenario presents itself. But as usual, we humans like to find meaning in everything. So we assume that there is deeper meaning to our dreams. But the fact that other creatures dream and they don't have the ability to question or conceptualise any meaning begs the question as to why there should be any 'spiritual' meanings or other interpretations to dreams. In fact this, to me, just points to a more rational and evolutionary reason for dreaming - which is to reherse and speculate on potential situations.

The thing with personal development is that there are two components of it: the inner-game and the outer-game. The outer-game is the one that requires practical action. Actually making changes to your circumstances to get physical results. But the inner-game is, in my opinion, much more important. The problem with it is that it too requires action but the action is internal. The inner-game is concerned with your psychology: your interpretation of things, limiting beliefs, values, motivations, insecurites, neuroses etc. Fundamentally our entire experience of the world, of relality, is filtered through our psychology, Through this inner game. Our psychology is our experienced reality. In effect, the inner-game is the 'real' one, from which the outer-game is derived. Depending on the level of inner work we do, our perception of what outer work needs doing will change. So I am an advocate for inner-work and psychology from which all our actions derive. Getting the inner work down first before taking action makes more sense than taking action first. Because if we go ahead taking actions and then our psychology changes, the actions that we took may no longer be relavent or appropriate. In fact it is possibile to require little to no practical action at all if you nail the inner stuff.. because you realise that it is all an illusion and has little true value.. It's actually possible to be happy and at peace with everything exactly as it is.

Wow. Just..wow Don't panic Simon. I wasn't having a dig at you. I was taking your comment as a cue for further thought. No offense intended.

To quote Leo from his video on how society f***s you in the ass: When I watched the video it really resonated with me because it aligned with thoughts and feelings I was already having on this subject. It really poses a good question. Do relationships and particularly marriages inhibit personal growth? The problem with personal development is that is requires a strong determination, commitment and focus on the self. By its very nature it is a self-centred thing – it’s personal. Also, to be successful in development you can’t have limiting factors. Everything personal development teaches you is about overcoming obstacles and limiting beliefs. For a single person, personal-development is fairly straight forward because they can exclusively focus on themselves without having to consider others too closely. But once they become ‘caught up’ in a marriage (or relationship) things change. Every thought, decision and action one takes will have an effect on the other person and on the marriage itself. You have to consider the other person and the consequences of your actions. This will inevitably put limitations on personal growth. It reminds me of the 'crab mentality' analogy - two crabs in a bucket, whenever one tries to climb out the other pulls it back down. There are 4 ways things can go in a marriage: 1, both people do personal development and are on the exact same path so can nurture and support on another. 2, both people do personal development but follow different paths, ultimately causing them to drift apart. 3, on persone does personal development and the other takes a back seat because it would cause conflict for them to do it as well. In cases where it’s the man pursuing development the woman may become bored and have a child as a personal pursuit of her own. 4, neither person does any person development because to do so will cause conflict and threaten the marriage. They both become stuck in life. They become unfulfilled and bored and perhaps take on the only pursuit that they can share together – having a family. It seems to me many people choose to have a family as a means to share some ‘life-purpose’ together. Because unless both people are sharing the same goal, they will either drift apart or inhibit their own growth so as not to endanger the marriage. I think people often choose to start families in an attempt to derive life purpose that they are otherwise restricted from doing. I’ve heard many excuses as to why people stop pursuing their interests, passions, life purpose and authentic selves once they are married: “I can’t do that because my spouse won’t like it” “I can’t do that because it is selfish and I have to put spouse/family first” “It is wrong to focus on myself in the marriage. We are a team we must do everything together” “If I did that it would come between us and break us up” “My wife/husband/kids always come first” “He/she would leave me if I did that” “I have to do what is best for my spouse/family” “They are my life now” “We would have to move/sell the house for me to do that” “We wouldn’t see each other as much if I did that” “I would have to spend much time away” “He/she/they needs me around” “What would my husband/wife say if I did that?” “I can’t afford it, I have to support my spouse/family” There are probably many more. I can relate to this topic because both my wife and I have both abandoned personal pursuits in the interests of keeping the marriage together. In fact our marriage is restricting us so much that we are both stuck in life. Her in a job she hates, me without a job. She refused a place in medical school because the disruption it would have caused for her to spend 5 years there would have meant selling the house and spending time apart. So she never became the doctor that she wanted to be. I abandoned my pursuit to become an airline pilot because the time, money and commitment required to gain necessary experience after I got my licence would have cost us our marriage. Even though I had already invested 2 years and a small fortune to qualify for the licence, which is now fairly useless. We both priorities our marriage over our personal development. It is only now that I see that this prioritisation came from the insecurites and neediness that we both had. So to answer Leo’s question “How it working out? Are we fulfilled yet?” the answer is “It isn’t. And No”. In fact I struggle to see why we are even here doing this thing. Where is the value? Just a stagnant life, desperately scraping around looking for ‘reasons’ to validate our situation by constructing ‘fulfilling pursuits’ such as travelling and ‘doing things together’. So what are peoples’ thoughts on this topic? I challenge those of you who are in committed relationships and marriages to look deeply and see where you may have abandoned personal development or fabricated ‘alternative’ plans that preserve the relationship. Perhaps there are also people who have success stories to prove me wrong. I would be very interested to hear about cases where people have been able to maintain a productive and fulfilling life within a marriage where perhaps both people have been able to pursue personal goals.

To be completely honest, this is probably true. The reason being tht self-actualization is, by its very nature, a self-centred thing. But it isn't a 'bad' kind of selfishness. We are all selfish in life. Every single one of us. We just don't see it most of the time and we cxan justify ourselves to the death if questioned. Even 'selflessness' has selfishness in it. This topic has been discussed elsewhere on the forum.. Noone here is using anyone. It is yes. Noone is blaming anyone here. My original post was asking for people to recount their experience of the combination of marriage and personal-development. Whether the experiences were good or bad, productive or inhibiting. I wasn't looking to place blame or shun responsibility for my own choices. Or to make a case that marriage is a definate no-no. But regardless of whether we think it 'should' be possible to combine marriage and development, the reality is a different story. And that is what I am interesting in hearing about.

A very healthy step towards personal development and self-actualization. This is something many people can't do and the reason why they become stuck in life and neurotic. As you get more comfortable with communication you will become less shy and more confident. And the more you can open up not just with others but to yourself, the more you can see and iron out the neuroses, insecurities and limiting beliefs and become a much stronger and productive person. ^^This^^

I don't think there has been an emphasis on forgiving. Not reacting or being defensive is not the same as forgiving. 'To forgive' assumes wrong doing in the first place. Then we get in to the whole 'right' vs 'wrong', 'good' and 'evil' debate. Forgiving doesn't really come in to this situation. There is no forgiving to be done really as there is no real reason to label the behaviour in any way in the first place. Choosing your reactions, picking your battles, is a choice that you make about you. It's not about them. You don't have to forgive someone just because you chose not to react and walk away. The whole 'forgiving' malarkey is a whole contentious subject of it's own. I can't do this 'holding grudges' thing. It opposes healthy self-development. There are more constructive ways to deal with boundary infringments..

Having a girlfriend won't fulfill you. You have nothing to prove to your dad. and there are no 'required' results in life. Your life is about you. You are the centre of it. You're not here to prove anything to anyone else, or to serve anyone, or be anyone's bitch. Nor are you here to follow arbitrary 'rules' and social norms that you think are required of you. So take the responsibility and create the life. Read, gain knowledge and help others. Do it. create a vision of what you want to become and work out what you need to do to achieve that. I know the feeling. But what I did was start doing some inner-work. I worked my way through all of Leo's videos (and I can recommend the best ones to get you through this point), and I also spent time introspecting, self-analysing my own issues, my past, my present, my future. My username is FindingPeace because that is exactly what I did find after doing the inner work. And I still am finding. I am now in a far more constructive frame of mind to make better choices for my future any my happiness. The way you feel right now can be overcome quite easily. And it's just a feeling, it isn't reality. It a collections of thoughts, limiting beliefs, expectations etc Some of which probably need tweaking. It's a bit like being short-sighted and not realising it. You can't see the world clearly at all. But when someone gives you a pair of glasses everything becomes crystal clear. You see the world with a detail you never saw before. Stay in there and stay tuned to this forum and Leo's videos. Edit to add: two of Leo's videos that turned my life around were "How to stop being a victim" and "Responsibility verses Blame". Also "What is happiness" and "The happiness spectrum" are good to get your head around. There are many more..

There's actually a profound truth to this. I have discovered this myself over the last year or so. People only appear toxic because we allow their behaviour to influence us in undesirable ways. Whether it's emotions, thoughts, beliefs or actions we allow them to influence, ultimately we are letting them 'bother' us. The truth is that they are just people being people, just as we are ourselves. We are all different and we are all bound to conflic with one another's world views from time to time. But how we interpret or respond to that conflict is down to our own psychology. Our own insecurity, anxiety, agenda and ego. And many more aspects besides. One way to see people as less toxic is to develop acceptance of other people and of reality in general. Accept that they are what they are, they do what they do. There is no controlling it. Take responsibility for how we interpret them and respond to them. Take responsibility for how we let them affect us internally. There were people in my life I previously saw as very toxic. And they don't have a healthy, functional effect on people. And didn't on me. But as I learned to accept that they are what they are, and become less reactive to it, I still 'label' them as toxic but they can't actualy 'hurt' me anymore because I have taken responsibility for my own reaction to them. I am independent of them. To modify one of Leo's sayings: "I am completely independent of the opinions and actions of others."

I agree with this. Sometimes it is constructive to say "Let's talk about this when I/we have had chance to calm down." However that is different from walking away from it. It's important to make that distinction. If you need space then communicate that fact, as opposed to just turning and leaving the room. Two very different messages there.

I think I know what you mean. I agree, there are people who think they are doing useful inner work when atually they are just distracting themselves and creating a belief of development. Which achieves nothing really. That distiction wasn't clear in the original post though. I'm doing most of my work on the 'inner' side at the moment before working on the outer stuff. It makes sense to me to do it that way around. Reason being that my outlook and perspectives on life have changed whilst my inner game has been changing. However the improvement of the quality of my life has been profound even though my circumstances haven't really changed. So I advocate the inner-game work even if it is done without much out-game work. As long as there is a greater picture and an overall plan.

Interesting comments. 'Escape' and 'excuse'? Not facing real life anymore. People that get the inner game sorted and perhaps reach enlightenment are exactly those that are facing reality. It's the rest of society that neurotically goes around making 'struggles' and 'challenges' out of things that in reality are no such thing. Getting your psychology sorted is not an excuse or an escape. It is the exact opposite. It actually frees you from challenges and suffering in life. It frees you from the illusions that cause all of the shit that you feel you suffer from in life. It takes more work and greater wisdom to see reality for what it is than it does to live within the low-conscious illusions that cause all the struggles that you refer to.

I agree. In fact, take it as a compliment. You don't have to engage with this guy, just leave him to it.

What kind of psychological damage? The question to ask here is not about suppressing anger but why you need to be angry in the first place? So someone insults me, weather it's verbally or by spitting at me. That's slightly different to someone hitting or injuring me. In fact in the latter I would try to remove myself from the situation as quickly as possible. But as for insults.. so what? I guess it depends if it's someone you will see again or not. Whether they are a factor in your daily life. In any case I wouldn't be retaliating with physical violence. That makes you no better than them. If you feel the need to be angry and defensive then they've obviously touched something sensitive within you. There is something within you, something you believe, that they have drawn attention to. There's a good saying "Nobody can make you feel bad without your permission". If you were a secure, self-assure person then noone can offend you. You wouldn't be getting angry and defensive. Beating the shit out of people because they offend you is a red flag that some inner work needs doing. People will only walk over you if you let them. People saying and doing things isn't the same as walking over you. Walking over you is when you allow someone to influence your own behavious, decisions or beliefs. In fact by reacting to someone's insult you are already pandering to them, allowing them to influence your behaviour. They are already walking over you. You are letting them perturb you. You don't have to react to people. You don't have to entertain them either - you can walk away and have nothing further to do with them. It's your choice really. Do you want to feel all angry and agressive or would you rather just turn away and get on with your life? Noone's making you engage with it. By reacting to someone's insult they already own you. Be the bigger person and show greater self-control. This issue has nothing really to do with confidence. In fact a greater confidence will come from being less reactive and having more self-control. In terms of relationships - that's what boundaries are for. And boundaries aren't about fighting back when someone crosses one. They are about making it clear what is and isn't acceptable to you and applying a non-offensive consequence - like leaving the room, or saying no. Interesting question though.

Hats? Good grief.. What about a 'hair tattoo'?