WindInTheLeaf

Perhaps the biggest trap of the teacher is believing he has nothing to learn from those he attempts to teach.

Isn't the problem that 'I' am not free to take or leave your advice as I wish? That I, in my confusion, confuse the appearance of truth(the truth that ego likes to listen to and believe as truth) with truth(that ego does not like, and tries to turn away from to stay alive).? Were you not? Sure seemed so, and you have been avoiding the question he puts forth whenever it was posed throughout this thread. Perhaps you are not as of now where you think you are, and you turn away from a question that rips at your position on top of the mountain.

well, it just felt that way, look at his answer and decide for yourself. If the human-being winterknight is not aware, then how can any word he types here be the cause of anything but confusion? Would he not risk seekers such as yourself being confused by his words, to which they may attach various meanings that are not really there? Would anyone in their confusion not see his words through the clouds of their mind?

Instead of holding on to your position on top of the mountain, listen to his question. You are enlightened, yet you are still bothered by words, how can this be so?

If each person's path is ultimately quite personal, and a lack of honesty keeps us going in circles, why do you put upon yourself the label of enlightenment and hand out advice to those that lack the honesty to ask the right questions and the vision to see the wrong answers? Furthermore, could it be that you, on your personal path, found great use in things that are of no use to those of a different path? Could your greatest tool be someone else's greatest obstacle?

You mention how you were always that which you sought, that you were always at the 'top of the mountain'. On the way to this realization of there being nothing to realize, what caused you the most confusion and what helped you the most?

If you are to know then know this. It's not that you should stop asking questions when there are still questions to ask. But to speed up the process of self-realization you just have to be that process of self-realization. Instead of seeking the right path up the mountain, stopping at every turn to contemplate which way to go, take a seat mentally and listen to the birds on winds of mind. In every moment of your every day the answers that lie between you and You are presenting themselves when you point your conscious attention the right way. What is the right way but the way that begs your attention? What keeps causing you unrest is naturally what bothers, moves, drains you the most, and when you embody stillness it is what is naturally drawing your attention out of meditation. Be honest with yourself as you inquire into what is going on, why you are caught up in whatever you are caught up in doing whatever you are doing contemplating whatever you are contemplating. Self-inquiry is crucial for finding one's way back through the maze of mind as it was self-deception that caused one to get lost in the first place, but as it is part of the self-same structure that attempts to keep itself alive by perpetuating itself it can easily lead one further astray. I am amazing at deceiving myself so better listen for signs. Some times I may believe that something is something it is not, and so I fool myself and suffer by going in circles or separating myself further from the truth into wider, wilder circles. If you recognize non-duality, although you may not have realized its depth(and isnt there always more to discover ?), then you realize. in some way, that the world as you experience it is one side of the coin of I. Letting go of those things that doesnt really matter and solving those that do is a form of re-allignment of the self. If truth is one that is nothingness then you are as of now truth hiding from itself in itself by itself. You are that you are looking for. In a way it does not matter where you look, but if you are to look in a certain way, be it with honest eyes, stillness of mind and purity of heart. It is a process of letting go. You are not climbing a mountain as much as returning to your resting position, holding on to whatever you cannot let go of on your way down until you are ready to let it go. Let go of anything and it returns to rest after having carried out whatever energy was put into it. As of now you are holding on to something keeping you stuck till you figure out what you need to figure out on this part of the journey. Depending on who you are, you may believe to find most use of either self-inquiry or surrender. One is primarily masculine energy the other feminine energy, but really they are one, and choosing one over the other leaves out half the fun. Secondly, if the 'problem' that keeps you in unrest is that you are separated from your authentic self, from truth, then how can you know that you are not fooling yourself into chasing down the wrong road? By listening to whatever presents itself and inquiring upon it you can unriddle yourself of your unrest and become one with truth once again. As soon as you start picking sides, you always leave something out, and ignoring certain parts of I that keeps calling for your attention is what separates you from truth. Any road is the way, so if this sounds like gibberish just toss it out the window. If something sounds like bullshit it probably is, and if you are on a nice flow in a direction that feels right, then don't let this alter your course. It is easy to get stuck believing in fancy words just because they sound fancy. Or discard wisdom by its strange appearance. Some times truth hits like lightning from a clear blue sky. Or it can be building up like a storm for a period of time until the pressure is released. Trying to single out a lightning in a storm shelters your attention from all the rest, and believing there are no lightning to be found when the sky is clear shelters you from the possibility of it arising. While you are busy taking notes on what the teacher is preaching at the board, the truth is smiling at you from across the room. While you are looking down at your phone on public transportation truth flys by the window but you are too preoccupied to notice it, let alone catch it. If you can embody stillness in action and search without searching then you are already there. If you believe truth to be found in some specific places and not to be in certain others, then try to be attentive to the road and look for signs of going in circles.

@winterknight yes, but where they are they are not at rest. If the goal is to be at rest at the top of the mountain as you say, then I believe it important to reflect on the way, especially if we act as guides that wish to help bring other selves to rest. Nothing hides truth more than the appearance of truth, and empathy better than no-self. Just try to put yourself in the shoes of a seeker and see what would be most beneficial for truth to arise, to be. I wish you would reflect on some of the things i failed to point out in the previous posts, and see if there is anything that makes sense. If not then it doesnt matter.

@winterknight how can you be certain you are at the peak; that you are seeing the paths up the mountain clearly. How can you be certain that you are not feeding the wheel of confusion by your attempts to undo it? How can you address ten thousand ears by one mouth without confusing, if you are lucky, all but one?

how are you so certain they are of use that you have not even the slightest bit of uncertainty about it?

@winterknight surely you must have more than 'sounds good to me' to a question about whether any of the answers you have given throughout the thread are of any use for (sincere)* seekers? *how can any seeker be sincere when he is actively seeking truth? How can he hear the answers when he is asking questions?

@winterknight ofcourse I am trying to persuade myself, but it is hard when I am not listening. Surrender and self-inquiry are two sides of the same coin. I have to surrender to allow what must be inquired about to arise to the surface, and I must inquire about that which arises to the surface to rid myself from it(by listening to what it has to tell me), allow it to dissolve. If I use self-inquiry to dig for the truth in boiling water, I won't find much but suffering and confusion. You might say that in order to let something go you must self-inquire about it and find the reason you are holding on, the reason why you are not at peace, but if any act of self-inquiry from a place of unrest causes more unrest how can this ever be the way? It's like trying to hit a target by bow and arrow, while firing in the middle of an earthquake. I say be the earthquake and you can never miss. Be the earthquake and you are already there, and by not resisting some things nor chasing others I will be carried to stillness on a beautiful journey of letting go. Of course if you are unable to let it unfold by itself, and insist on being the man in charge, you may dig holes in search for the truth until you drop from exhaustion and are forced to surrender. But why not, instead of fighting the darkness allow it to wash over you, instead of seeking out truth allow it to come to you. Instead of being the guy who pushes a stone up a hill only to see it roll down for him to start over again, why not become the stone that is pushed to the top and pulled back down by gravity.

My point is rather, that whatever keeps me from stillness can be processed much faster if I just allow it to unfold. Truth is here now, so when I stop looking for it in time, and just inquire upon what arises post-experience as part of the process of self-discovery that is I, truth is what is. When 'I' take the wheel I am driving while looking out the back window. I react to certain impressions and attempt to figure out how to drive. But I am always a step behind and try to react to the road behind me. This is actively trying to solve the maze of the mind. When 'I' take the back seat and stop wasting energy trying to drive, I can better sense and deal with, actually better self-inquire upon, whatever causes unrest beneath my surface. When anything is let go, it will come back to its resting position. So when I let go, will I not be carried back through my maze and into the light of being? Is any movement of mind what brings me into the spiral of ego? If I am already enlightened, I need not find answers, and if I am not, will any question asked not be done from a place of confusion bringing about more confusion? Truth is like a child playing hide and seek. As long as I am seeking, it is hiding, but if I stop seeking it will come to me. Edit: Perhaps rather, I will come to truth.

My biggest hindrance, it seems, has been that I have sought answers to questions I believed to be on the spiritual path, while the questions I needed to ask were the once that asked themselves when I let go of a wish to find truth. How can I, in my confusion, be a better guide at self-inquiry than the winds and waves of is. By self-inquiry I can come to understand and untie the knot of duality, but if I realize, at least intellectually, that the very act of self-inquiry, when done from a point of separation from is, is that very problem i tempt to solve. Self-inquiry should take the backseat as a passive observer and problem-solver, let it be what it is. When it becomes the guiding force of action, I have become removed from the truth that was trying to catch my attention, as I believed I knew what to look for. Instead of deciding, why not let your feelings decide? Shouldn't letting go of control come before inquiring into what arises, as it then allows whatever you have been actively avoiding to come to light. It's like I have been a ship sailing around in my own waters and created waves that keep echoing in eternity. As long as I keep moving, searching for solutions to problems I myself have created, I create more waves. When I become still and let the waves carry out themselves by listening to each one of them, allowing them to pass, I will soon come to rest in still waters. How do I know what is the right question to ask, when the right question asks itself when I am silent?

How do I know what is the right question to ask? How do I know if I am a sincere seeker?

It arose for some reason or another that is as of now hidden from sight but you - and only you - can figure it out if you let it be, look and listen. Perhaps it had been growing for some time but you had just turned your attention away from it, as you believe such things should not happen/arise anymore. And as you suddenly found yourself in a corner where you could no longer hide, what you had been running from caught up with you. Perhaps you have had a deep insight in an elevated state of mind that you have tried to hold on to, to keep the good vibes flowing in your day-to-day. Perhaps your body hasnt caught up with your mind, as in you understand something on an intellectual level without embodying/acting out that truth. Possible cure: relax, be and let be. Allow whatever is blocking your flow of truth to be brought with the stream from within to without. By repressing, resisting, objecting, you are actively keeping alive whatever you would like to rid yourself of / avoid experiencing as part of what arises as 'is'. Try and put aside your ideas of what should and should not be, and see what arises without such interference. If you cannot, ask yourself whether you are a reliable judge in matters of what should and should not arise as what is. If the answer is yes, ask yourself if you can really trust such yourself to decide whether or not you are a reliable judge in such matters.

When you are experiencing such a moment of panic, fear, of being caught up in a hellish spiral, and you tell yourself to 'calm yourself, put your attention back to the moment', are you not turning your back on the moment? You believe you should not be experiencing this, as you are way past such irrationality, - that you are well aware of the impermanence of all things and such get nothing but struggle in holding on -, but at the same time you actively seek to avoid the actual and find your way to a moment you want to be in. You can do nothing wrong, but everything arises for a reason, and turning your back on whatever is now for you, you distance yourself from that very state you actively seek.

. It requires you to do no effort. You are already it, just gotta flow with it. Our control lies in how much we stand in the way of our own actualization. Letting go of the search for it does not mean you abandon it. Rather you sit back and allow it to come to you by just being you. But then how do I know I'm going the right way? Whatever is here now for you to be, is always the right way, you are it always has been. The journey is the destination, so instead of looking for the destination all you have to do is rest in the current moment of your journey, in whatever is going on, what is now for you. Sure what is now for you may be a question that you search for the answer to, but that search is the answer then. When you stop perceiving what you are doing as being a means to an end of enlightenment, your suffering may end before you know it. Sure, enlightenment has possibly a ton of steps to it, but if you stop looking at the staircase leading god knows how far up, then each step may be a little lighter. Perhaps there will then only be one step, and then the rest just comes by themselves. Perhaps there will be no steps at all, but just a light-hearted bouncing. I don't know, don't take my word for it it isn't worth the paper it is written on, but if anything resonates with you now then let it be.

Who comes here searching for help? Who needs meaning to be alive?

Is truth beyond thoughts? If truth is beyond thoughts, can it be described in words to someone having not realized truth? If those realizing truth stops thinking and talking about it, does those still talking have a harder or easier time realizing truth? If someone reaches a conceptual understanding in which he is able to almost describe truth, will this theory become a great tool or a huge obstacle for realizing truth?

Seems like you've come to your senses. Be at peace with yourself and you'll find peace in your world. It's easy getting caught up trying to be whatever idea we may have of what we should be, instead of just being such that we can quicker find our way through the maze we build for ourselves.

Stop looking in the mirror, and face whatever makes you uncomfortable little by little. I was dealing with some social anxiety of pretty severe if I may say, walking down the street I felt like all eyes were on me judging my every move, so I sheltered myself off from the world and if I had to go out and about I put in my headphones and my hoodie covering my head, shoulders down keeping my eyes on the ground. I realized that this could not go on so one thing I did amongst others is I got a job at a supermarket as a cashier. I'm the beginning it was like torture but I started with just saying have a nice day to everyone, and slowly I started getting eye contact and started asking small things, you know 'putting myself out there' and little by little the uneasiness went away. I spread this out to everyday life where I wasn't hiding behind the uniform of 'just some cashier guy', and just started interacting with people I met as I was going about doing what I was doing. It was like my comfort zone was so little, so I tried to spread it little by little, at first small steps but later bigger and bigger steps (although didn't feel that way, like the reverse actually as it got easier and easier until it just happened by itself). It's like as soon as I got a flow going it just happened on its own, but boy was that first few steps terrifying. It was like I had gotten into this narrow lane of conduct and slowly I had dug myself down without realizing it. The first step was like I had to scape a mountain of dirt, but when I reached the top it was all down hill from there.

@now is forever the drunk is perhaps the zen devil. For a long time in my later teenage years I sought ego death at the bottom of a bottle. or well it surely seems that way when I'm looking at it now.

@Nahm Feels like we going in circles. See how difficult it is to tell anyone anything they dont already see? And if anyone is already 'there' as the truth, why do you even feel the need to? And by trying, you distance yourself from the bliss, the 'purer' form of truth(i don't know if we can make such a distinction, but pointing at the truth that rests completely in itself and as such is an expression of bliss), of there being absolutely no problem whatsoever, no need or want. How do you ever wish to help yourself if you constantly try? Leave yourself be, you are already it. @WaveInTheOcean How do you know that searching is a necessity to find enlightenment? Because Osho said so? Or your ego wants you to believe you have to keep it alive to kill it? Perhaps he is right. But he is saying that the obstacle is truly the search, right? And that the ego keeps itself alive, moment by moment, by desire, seeking, chasing? Perhaps the search that he points to as being necessary is the one leading you to realizing that searching is what keeps you from being where you wish to be? That you were there all along but just kept this idea alive that there was something more to it. I see you quote Alan Watts in the signature. In one of his talks, cannot remember which one doesnt really matter you probably know the one im talking about, he points towards how we are sort of standing in the way of the evolution of human consciousness by believing that enlightenment is something 'I' can bring about. Perhaps 'I' like to elevate the idea of enlightenment to being something hard to accomplish, such as to make me one hell of a guy for achieving it. Perhaps the idea having to do anything at all is what keeps us from realizing that nothing is really done by anything, that it just IS. If you came to the step of final surrender, and realized, that all your struggling, all your searching and fancy ideas, had been absolutely worthless, that you in fact know absolutely nothing and never had any control or any kind of insight to set you above anyone or anything else, what would you do? Would you allow yourself to die and let go of everything you hold, everything you believe to have achieved along the way? Or keep alive the idea that you have somehow found a higher truth that you must protect by keeping alive your tiring search. Any belief must go, or the ego keeps its hold. Perhaps this is too much to swallow at once, and therefore the search(or kind of search in reverse actually, since enlightenment has nothing to do with knowledge but quite the opposite, the dissolution of knowledge/belief) acts as a parachute keeping you from burning up along your way down. Perhaps it is necessary as you believe it to be. I don't know. But since no one is right and no one is wrong, any question is without any specific answer, i could not say I am right and you are wrong that would be kind of against the point im trying to make. I do wish, however, that you ponder about these things, look at it dont just discard it because you believe to know. You dont know, neither do I. For good measure, ill post this question once again, although it can be formulated in many ways, one of which you yourself posted (the quote with the teeth): Can truth be grasped by thought if thoughts arise as expressions of truth? Some of which could perhaps be: can a light shine upon itself? A hand grasp itself? Teeth bite themselves? Can I know myself? And so, If all is I, can I know anything at all?

@WaveInTheOcean Quite a stream, some nice quotes too. Thoughts are not problematic as thoughts but become problematic when we attempt to make them more than what they are. When they become tools in the search for what they arise as part of we embark on an endless search to find ourselves. I believe the quote about the teeth points in this direction. If truth is here and now, searching for truth is like fooling ourselves into believing we don't already have it, and that we have to find it somewhere out there. Searching may arise as truth but when it becomes a means to reach an end of truth we become truth chasing our own tail.