WindInTheLeaf

@Arhattobe what I'm getting at is that if you are on some kind of karmic momentum and find yourself being misled by 'Mara'/'Devil'into waking as you enter the lucid part of your dream-journey - the final stage of your path - such that you lose yourself and whatever lessons were still to learn as yourself before becoming no one, would this be considered a break from your karmic path? Lets say you were not meant to reach enlightenment, at least not when you did, (there might have been psychedelics involved or something of the like) and seeing there is nothing that needs changing makes you lose your motivation to fight for change effectively leaving the world a fighter short?

@Arhattobe hehe yes perhaps a bit overdramatic you be the judge of that, but sometimes the middle is more easily seen by its extremes. Perhaps turned down a notch: If some guy, on his karmic path towards becoming whatever he might be becoming, is awakened before he reaches his end, could this cause confusion on a cosmic scale(as in cause ripples in the karmic seas), and offset whatever balance he might have been part of as his karmic self, or can there be no such interference no matter the way his karma is released? If someone no longer bound by karma, by believing he is doing right, pulls you out of your karmic path, out of the cave and into the light, could it offset some balance and change the course of things in a negative direction (opposite than intended thus slowing down the process of collective awakening in the attempt to speed it up).? Don't know if the questions changed from the previous in my attempt to ask in a different, less dramatic way, now there are two where there before was one, perhaps next time they will merge back into a new and better version of the first haha.

@Arhattobe if someone by his karma is on the road to 'Jesus' but is deceived by Mara into waking up, such that any karma is released and turning him from becoming what he may have been destined to, would this be a break from what was meant to be or was that deceit meant to happen? Can anything happen that was not meant to be?

@Mu_ Been pondering along similar lines, and still only see vague outlines of a theory, but ill send some thoughts your way perhaps you can use. Surely everything is in perfect order, so no need to really get worked up about anything, yet from my position, as I experience / live out / am 'Is', there seems to be something about change that needs changing. As all other things, I arise as a reflection of Self, as a manifest of 'Is', and as I come to be so I am meant to be. So, if I believe that there are somethings that are in disorder then it means that there is something that is 'wrong' in the sense that it needs to change so that I now see no wrongness, or that I need to change so that there is no more perceived wrongness. Harmony and struggle are not exclusive of one another. All is a true expression of 'Is', so the only 'wrong' thing, in my eyes at least, would be the limitation of 'Is' by confining my free expression here now. If some madman came down the street punching people, and no one fought back as 'he is just troubled, violence is wrong, turn the other cheek as mom used to say' or something along those lines, then he would keep being a menace and those who did nothing will feel shame and guilt as he kills someone by them hitting their head on the curb or something. Not advocating violence, but in the face of violence, violence can sometimes be necessary to bring peace. And what better expression of unconditional love than mirroring his actions so that he may see his own shortcomings? If you feel like something is wrong about something, don't hold back by some mantra of 'all is good..... aum.... there is really nothing wrong...". You, as an expression of N(Is)W (That which is now haha tried to combine them), is right whatever you do and whatever you feel. So perhaps the world is completely fucked and we are now in a game of un-fucking it against some very strong powers that try to push it over the edge. Just try to love the game for what it is, and love your enemy for being there for you to be a hero.

@Timotheus Whenever you feel like you are waking, the dream pulls you back in? Perhaps it is not time to wake. Mara is not really as big a of a devil as many would like to think.

Newbie? You've been at it since the dawn of time my friend. Who told you that you need something to aim for to get there? The problem of texts is not that they cannot be of help, but rather that you tend to cling to them when they are no longer of any use, and confuse the appearance of truth for truth. While you are working towards something you are missing the lessons right here now. You believe you need an idea of enlightenment for you to aim for, but what if that idea is what keeps you in darkness? What if that idea of enlightenment is merely the ego making you go round and round while you believe to be going forward, as it needs to do so to stay alive. I say empty your cup of muddy water instead of trying to turn it clear by some kind of magic you believe to be out there somewhere. And the more of a 'newb' you are to stillness (aka the more restless you are in mind body and spirit), the less you can trust your beliefs. So how do you wish to tell apart, by your reasoning, what is right and what is wrong, which steps that leads you towards light and which into darkness? If instead of trying to get to some place you believe to be the place to be, to some kind of way of being you believe to be the right way of being, you just start acting truthfully, and turn your attention to the pain rather than away from it, and inquire into your habits of now, goals of future and mistakes of past, you'll be led much quicker down the road of enlightenment. Just start being truthful, while at the same time untangling whatever trauma might be lying in your past (you let go of any and all regrets as you see them clearly and accept any and all suffering as you see how it helped you grow). You'll then enact truth, while getting rid of any lies you might have been telling yourself. You'll rid yourself of deceitful habits while replacing them with ones of harmony. You'll rid yourself of any and all regrets as pains of past are being re-integrated into a stronger, more honest you. Sure you can, along the way, find guidance here and there, but be careful about idolization of certain teachings and ways of being. You have to realize that any belief-system you might attempt to follow to get anywhere, is seen through the restless waters that is your mind. The more unrest, the more you will misinterpret the words of whomever you choose to follow. Teachers can point you in the right direction, if they are indeed teachers and not just appearing to be, and to distinguish between true teachers and false ones just listen to your intuition. The worst teachers and best trixters are to be found amongst men, so don't just blindly follow someone appearing to know the way. Don't accept what you do not feel is true. Trust yourself, you are right where you need to be.

You can find guidance in the steps of those who came before you but just realize that you are the voice of now and to reach that place of being that you so seek, you must embody truth however it is for you. Don't get caught in the wheel of accepting what you doubt to be true and spinning a web of confusion by singing when it is time for silence and being silent when it is time to speak. There is probably lots of wisdom to be found in any of the directions you mention, but why not test out the waters yourself and decide by what you most feel connected to, most feel is you? Just be cautious, as you can oftentimes find yourself idolizing or demonizing certain beings, teachings, ways of being for the wrong reasons. The more that lies underneath your surface and the larger the degree of unrest caused by it, the less you can trust what you think you know. In muddy waters everything that shines is believed to be gold. So sometimes it is better to be still and inquire into whatever is now, than to go out and look for gold in waters muddied more by every step. Sure you might get lucky and stumble upon gold, the right idol to worship and the right virtues to reflect, but by lacking the foundation of those ways of conduct you now mirror, such an acquired truth seems without essence and may be more of an obstacle than help for someone in search for truth. Every path leads to enlightenment, and so Buddha takes many forms. If your authentic self is your Buddha nature, then discovering what you always were is what enlightenment is all about. Coming to rest is a quest of unrest, so you will surely be meeting obstacles that can be more easily and perhaps less painfully overcome with the help of guides, therapists, gurus, religions etc. Just be honest with yourself first and foremost and you will naturally know what makes sense and what does not, which steps to follow and which to ignore. And don't get too attached to one teaching as it might easily lead you astray. Few things stand the test of time and teachings quickly lose their essence in translation. Even now as you read these words their meaning are different from which they were written. So don't take them too seriously. They are all you, and their meaning are that meaning which you see in them. What makes sense makes sense and what does not is oftentimes not worth the worry. You might return to words you once thought to be wise and find nothing but ignorance. You might stumble upon what you once discarded and find immense meaning. Just try to be centered and choose from the heart what to be true and what not to be, and be open to the possibility of you being proven wrong. Go in whatever direction you feel drawn to, but whatever you choose to worship and whatever idol you choose to follow, remember to worship above all else truth. This means, when you feel like truth is no longer there then truth is it is no longer there and that it is perhaps time to move on. And don't curse what you no longer find meaning in as completely meaningless as it was meaningful for you and perhaps brought you closer to the absolute truth. So there is really no choosing wrong if you choose by the heart. Follow Jesus today, Buddha tomorrow, Krishna the day after, and when you find no satisfying leader it is time to be your own.

Truth is a riddle and the journey is the destination.

@Nahm it's funny how kids mirror adults acting as if they know and thus take on their problems as their own, while adults might have their problems solved mirroring the kids and thus return to childhood's bliss.

Right as you may be, who wrote your script? Although the discussion between Joseph and Outer may seem to be off track, it is here in your post about how things happen as they are destined to. Perhaps there is something there you are not seeing? Or perhaps it was just meant to be here for you to write this wonderful reply. You raise a great question about whether those who reach enlightenment this lifetime were destined to from the very beginning of time. If this is so, then all there is to do is relax in being who you are as of now and let yourself be moved to authenticity by just letting go of all those beliefs that you should do something you are not already doing. When you write this, that you have no free will, how do you feel? If it feels right then it is probably right for you. If it leaves a sour taste in your mouth then let it go. You see, by that very notion you put forth, whatever is is right? So if you feel like this is bullshit then it is rightfully so, for you. Just be careful not to believe what is right for you is right for another. This can cause much frustration for you and whomever you try to convert to your truth. Regarding this reply. Whatever makes sense is for you to find sense in. Don't struggle to find meaning where there is none.

As long as there are preachers, idols and false ideals, there has to be anti-preachers, destroyers of idols and false ideals. I quite enjoy playing the devil's advocate when it is necessary. If no one rips at the foundation of one's beliefs once in a while, there is no saying how twisted ones tower of knowledge might become before it collapses on itself.

From where you stand that might be so, but you were not the one to ask the question so how are you to be the judge of that? The unchallenged master is no master at all. I merely asked some questions to he who claims to see all paths up the mountain. I did not expect some answer that would blow my mind, just what would seem like an honest inquiry into a very fundamental challenge of preaching the way he does. Sure it might be a distraction for those who might learn something from him, but blindly following self-proclaimed gurus and believing in apparent truths (those that make sense to the mind but not the heart) is perhaps the biggest trap there is. From where you are, he makes a lot of sense. Of course, you are a moderator of a self-inquiry forum centered around the teachings of Leo. But to tell those who are not just blindly following the advice of some enlightenment-idol on their screen, but challenging who may as well be causing more confusion rather than undoing it (not much separates truth from illusion), makes me question whether this forum is a sort of cult rather than a place of genuine exploration of Self. Of course you could argue that it is all just one big movement and it happens when it happens regardless of what is said and done, but this is a misconception about non-duality. It is like if all 'realized' no-self and the lack of free will or whatever we may call it and just were like 'oh well, nothing really matters so I have no responsibility for anything, I can do whatever I want!', the world would quickly fall apart. Just because all is one it is still two, and these two are in a sort of eternal game of hide and seek. If all these ideas are feeding the part of the one that is illusion, then in his attempt to provide guidance he is actually causing more confusion and prolonging the way back to center, stillness, nothingness.

If an arrow exceeds its target what is there to say about the aim? With great power comes great responsibility.

Well, looking back at your answers they seem like no answers at all. Perhaps my question has not been clear?

Questions are seeds of answers. Provide the right questions and the right answers will sprout.

I don't want you to accept it. I merely provide a question for those who may listen. Why are you avoiding it?

The right questions as in the questions that leads to the end of questions. All answers lie within, do they not? So anything resembling an answer without is clouded by the appearance of separation. You provide some answer on a computer screen but how can this ever be anything but the cause of confusion? No matter how well put your answers may be, they, as part of 'illusion', keeps the wheel spinning. And what if you suddenly reached a peak beyond the peak, beyond any notion of a mountain, and saw that you didnt really know what you thought you knew? And that you, both the part of you that were preaching and the part of you that were seeking went in circles at the edge of the cave listening to echoes of your own voice?

As part of the seekers without they may be what keeps attention away from within. If any answer you give is disturbed by the minds of whoever listens, reinterpreted in the light of whatever beliefs they may already hold about themselves, reality and what it means to be enlightened, will any answer you give not be the wrong answer? Is it not better to listen and ask the right questions?

So, if it is really something that unfolds by itself, and looking within is hindered by whatever is keeping your attention without, are these shiny ideas of yours not an obstacle for enlightenment? If it unfolds by itself, and the problem of 'I' is that I confuse truth for appearance of truth(ego-truth), then how can i ever find what I am looking for at the place I believe it to be? As such, of what benefit is a 'I am enlightened'-AmA to a sincere seeker?

Do they choose to turn inwards or is this something that happens by itself when it is time?

Of course. Those who are as of yet not even looking, not even aware of the fact that there is more to be aware of, may find use in shiny ideas to point them towards the path. But for those who are on the path, those shiny ideas are what keeps them from turning their eye inward. You see?

You divide very harshly between surrender and self-inquiry. Can there be honest self-inquiry without surrender? Lasting surrender without self-inquiry? Are they not two sides of a coin rather than two separate roads? Surrender done without self-inquiry is very unstable and oftentimes leads you to run your head against the same wall as you did not inquire upon what lead you to it the last time. Self-inquiry, if done from a dishonest position of no-surrender, leads you to self-inquire upon things that keeps the ego going instead of what will bring about its downfall. In my experience neither is worth the energy spend if done with the back turned against the other. And as such the most dedicated to self-inquiry would be wise to surrender.

So look within? I seem to be troubled by all these things I am drawn to, that keeps me searching for truth out there instead of within. The more something shines the more I believe it to be gold, and the more i believe something to be gold the more I hold on to it. If I am to look within for the truth, why are you feeding my 'without' with shiny ideas?

So, if I in my confusion believe truth to be found where it is not, where am I to look for truth?

the 1%? what 1%?