robdl

That which seeks to eliminate ego IS ego. See the subtle trickyness of this whole endeavour?

If suffering is fuelled by the false premise that there is an "I" apart from its thoughts, shouldn't we uncover this falsity-illusion? It's like asking: why wake up from a dream ridden by unnecessary division-conflict?

But desire can be healthy/good and fear is typically bad -- they're two distinctly different things. Of course the source for this is thought, so the source's credibility is dubious.

Another interesting thing about ego/self-image and this projected image-making of others is that it may flatter ego/self-image a lot of the time, but it also may worsen self-image, i.e. "That person is so much more successful than me. Wish I had their life." So the ego may be positively or negatively nourished by its projected image-making, but the key thing is the nourishment/perpetuation. Both positive-negative nourishment sustain ego/self-image just the same.

This is how we can learn through relationship. The images we project onto others reflect-indicate the self-image making in ourselves.

The self-image projects an image of another, which serves as a reinforcement of the self-image. "That person is rude" reinforces the self-image's "politeness." "That person is unintelligent" reinforces the self-image's "intelligence." "I respect that person's work ethic" validates-reinforces the self-image's "work ethic." "That person has good taste" reinforces the self-image's "good taste." The ego, through comparison-labelling-acceptance-rejection, is able to validate-reinforce itself from projected image-making.

Ego/thought-self projects an image of another out of its own conditioned movement. The ego (self-image) then has relationship with this projected image. One's self-image feeds/perpetuates the projected image, and the projected image feeds/perpetuates the self-image. They are co-feeding, co-perpetuating. Projecting images upon others is what sustains-reinforces ego/self-image, which is why ego loves to do so.

We've got an owl in the thread

Awesome. To mostly echo what you outlined - let’s go through this slowly: Thought creates the lens (“I”) out of its own movement, through which it views itself. The lens (“I”) is a product of thought — experience, memory, fear, and so on. This lens (“I”) is a product of thought but this lens also perpetuates, breeds more thought. The lens is the effect of thought but also the cause of (acts upon) thought, as the lens chooses-controls-validates-rejects thought. The lens fragment and the remaining thought fragments are co-feeding, co-reacting, co-perpetuating with one another. One self-feeding thought loop, fueled by its own division-fragmentation. Can we see how reactivity-choosing-control-effort-desire-fear, all positive-negative movements, perpetuate the lens-division, and therefore the loop? What happens when there is awareness with no distorting lens (a lens that has been put together by thought)?

With a holistic insight, another's supposed "belief"/"concept" quickly becomes your mutually shared fact/reality. It's kind of amusing, actually.

It all seems like belief/concepts/abstraction when operating at the intellectual ego mind level. Been there, done that

Quite so. "Be present in the moment" becomes a kind of belief/mantra for many; a notion to seek refuge in.

Can we see the whole movement of thought-self and how "I" nourishes belief, and belief nourishes "I"? They are co-feeding/co-reacting, within a unitary movement of thought-self. The seeing of this is not a belief, but meta to any/all belief systems.

Belief is a movement of fear; thought-self seeking security in abstraction. I'm talking about the direct seeing of the whole action of thought-self. Until that is seen, what I'm talking about will be met with confusion, partial intellectual understanding, or dismissiveness.

To me there is no complication or conceptualization; no abstraction or theory. That is all intellectual; thought-knowledge. There is just the holistic seeing-insight of the fact of the single, unitary thought-self loop; how it (falsely) divides observer/thinker/perceiver from observed/thoughts/time.

Fear and its many subtle forms --- belief, assumptions, conclusions, knowledge, concepts-abstractions, etc. All thought-self posing resistance, self-sustaining.

As the pre-assumptions serve as a conditioning lens through which we observe, except this lens distorts/corrupts. It is the lens of "I", pre-assumptions, or experience/knowledge/memory. All the same thing.

I'm not talking about outward chronological time, of the clock, of the calendar. I'm talking about inner psychological time, that recollects the past, and projects the future. There is no distinction between this psychological time and the "perceiver" of it. They are a single, unitary movement.

Yes, to see the whole movement of thought-self; not to see from within the loop of thought-self, which is intellect/conceptualization.

No concepts here. I speak from direct seeing of the fact. Like I said in my edit above: "there is holistic, unconditioned insight that sees-understands this whole self-feeding loop of time/time perceiver." There is no "I"-entity apart from psychological time. The "I"-entity is psychological time. I am speaking from that insight.

The movement of memory/past or projection/future (both psychological time) is one and the same movement as the time perceiver ("I"). No difference. There is holistic, unconditioned insight that sees-understands this whole self-feeding loop of time/time perceiver.

1) The "perceiver" of psychological time is made out of psychological time itself. No distinction between perceiver of time and time itself. 2) The "thinker" of thoughts is made out of thoughts itself. No distinction between thinker of thoughts and thoughts themselves. These two statements are saying the same thing. Time = thoughts = thinker = time perceiver ->> one single, unitary movement of thought-self

Time, as in psychological time, as in memory (past) and projected thought as "future". The "perceiver" of this psychological time and psychological time are one and the same thing. No distinction.

The movement of thought conjures a false "I" that "thinks" it is separate/distinct from "its" experiences, memories - "My" memories, "my" experiences, and so on. But in fact, it is one single, unitary movement of thought/experience/memory. One self-feeding thought-loop.

movement as in the process of mind/thought-self/ego as it reacts/fragments/divides/seeks within itself.