robdl

"To whom does this thought occur?" is a teaching that's a movement of thought that hasn't been fully actualized - indeed. Although it has created gaps/silence where that question can no longer even be asked, as the effort/will required to pose it has been seemingly lost -- just raw effortless attention. I hope this is taking me in the right direction.

The mind is indeed extremely mischievous and at every turn, masks itself. But I like Ramana Maharshi's analogy: "The mind will subside only by means of the enquiry 'Who am I?'. The thought 'Who am I?', destroying all other thoughts, will itself finally be destroyed like the stick used for stirring the funeral pyre."

Don't think of "What am I?" as a question with some answer, think of it as an instrument or tool to draw attention inward --- away from thoughts and perceptions and inward toward the mind's source. Any time a thought or perception arises, the question "To whom does this thought arise?" draws attention/identification away from thought-sense objects. When you start to think of it as a tool rather than a question, you'll stop getting confused/frustrated over any potential conceptual or theoretical answer to this "question." Crude analogy, but when you're about to go somewhere dark and someone hands you a lantern, you don't say "this is for shining light, but so what? I already know it shines light." The point isn't to conceptually answer what it's for, the point is to simply use it.

I dunno....I'd say that self-inquiry isn't intended to be in the form of a (repetitive) mantra like "I" or "who am I?"

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti

one could say thought = ego = mind = time

Just going to copy and paste what @Nahm provided, because it is basically how I do it as well: https://sites.google.com/site/psychospiritualtools/Home/meditation-practices/self-inquiry Self Inquiry This is a meditation technique to get enlightened, i.e. "self realization." By realizing who you are, the bonds of suffering are broken. Besides this goal, self-inquiry delivers many of the same benefits as other meditation techniques, such as relaxation, enhanced experience of life, greater openness to change, greater creativity, a sense of joy and fulfillment, and so forth. Focus your attention on the feeling of being "me," to the exclusion of all other thoughts. 1. Sit in any comfortable meditation posture. 2. Allow your mind and body to settle. 3. Now, let go of any thinking whatsoever. 4. Place your attention on the inner feeling of being "me." 5. If a thought does arise (and it is probable that thoughts will arise on their own), ask yourself to whom this thought is occurring. This returns your attention to the feeling of being "me." Continue this for as long as you like. This technique can also be done when going about any other activity. CAUTIONS: Many people misunderstand the self-inquiry technique to mean that the person should sit and ask themselves the question, "Who am I?" over and over. This is an incorrect understanding of the technique. The questions "Who am I" or "To whom is this thought occurring?" are only used when a thought arises, in order to direct attention back to the feeling of being "me." At other times the mind is held in silence. This practice of Self-attention or awareness of the ‘I’-thought is a gentle technique, which bypasses the usual repressive methods of controlling the mind. It is not an exercise in concentration, nor does it aim at suppressing thoughts; it merely invokes awareness of the source from which the mind springs. The method and goal of self-enquiry is to abide in the source of the mind and to be aware of what one really is by withdrawing attention and interest from what one is not. In the early stages effort in the form of transferring attention from the thoughts to the thinker is essential, but once awareness of the ‘I’-feeling has been firmly established, further effort is counter-productive. From then on it is more a process of being than doing, of effortless being rather than an effort to be.

“Curiosity” is understated. It has to be a thirst, a yearning, a drive. The ultimate and fundamental desire of your life.

Now what are most subtle, important conclusions to be wary of, and that should be dropped?

Orders of magnitude beyond anyone’s wildest imagination.

Whoops - scratch that. Reading and listening to teachers is highly motivating. Try listening to such teachers as Alan Watts, Mooji, Sadghuru, and Adyashanti for inspiration.

Have an ego death trip on psychedelics

Have you had any experiences with psychedelics? Literally going out of your mind may be what it takes for it to click. It's hard to understand this stuff from the perspective of conventional mind. How can the mind possibly fathom what lies beyond mind? What you're after --- the mind can never touch. So you're confused, and rightfully so!

I can multiply any two single-digit numbers in my head. I also have a sixth sense for where my keys are.

If your background is Christianity, check out Alan Watts' book: "Just as groundbreaking today as it was when it first appeared, Behold the Spirit is philosopher Alan Watts’s timeless argument for the place of mystical religion in today’s world. Drawing on his experiences as a former priest, Watts skillfully explains how the intuition of Eastern religion—Zen Buddhism, in particular—can be incorporated into the doctrines of Western Christianity, allowing people of all creeds to enjoy a deeper, more meaningful relationship with the spiritual in our present troubled times."

would you say that time was necessary to accumulate suffering so that you could be ripe for the insight?

So I need to scan through the threads of an online community I never heard of, therefore wasn't actually referencing, with a "completely degenerate" collective ego to pick the gold nuggets, before I'm suitably qualified to comment? That's a hard pass.

dealing with world issues consciously*, not through a lens of ego identification/attachment. If you fragment the world into "us---men" and "them---women," (which male rights activists are prone to do) and that is the lens through which you deal with real world issues, then you are at odds with any enlightenment work you're doing.

There's ego identification in masculinity/manhood. The extent to which you're a male rights activist and antagonistic towards feminism, or criticism of men, is usually a reflection of the extent to which you derive identity from being male. An attack on men literally becomes an attack on "you" and your selfhood. And you've joined causes/groups where the shared male identity is the whole basis/impetus for the group forming. And you may counter, "but being male is a biological fact, not an egoic delusion," but both can be true. You can factually be something but also be ego identified with it. Like you can factually be a lawyer, but you also can derive your identity from it. You can also factually be a caucasian person, but you can also derive your identity from it (see the KKK, white nationalists). Basically, male rights activists are to men as what white nationalists are to white people: a faction of a particular group (or collection of people with a shared attribute) that is over-ego-identified with that group, and is dearly holding on to the status quo as an egoic defense mechanism. It's just that when you're in the thick of it and so strongly identified as such, it's impossible to see the ego mechanisms at play. And I'm not singling out men either: this can be seen in feminist groups as well. There are some feminists who are simply seeking fairness/equality in a very conscious way, but there are certainly a number of feminists that rely on gender to form their ego identity. If there was a complete end to gender inequality and sexism of any kind, and feminism ceased to have a purpose or necessity, it would actually be an existential identity threat to those ego identified as such.

“People say that what we’re all seeking is a meaning for life. I don’t think that’s what we’re really seeking. I think that what we’re seeking is an experience of being alive, so that our life experiences on the purely physical plane will have resonances with our own innermost being and reality, so that we actually feel the rapture of being alive.” ― Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth

Yeah, those easy, unearned psychedelic revelations where you pass through existential terror, prior trauma, and literal insanity.

Have you seen teachers like Adyashanti or Mooji interact with others? They're completely sane, intelligent, sensible people -- no indication whatsoever of disorder despite having transcended their egoic identity.

would you mind elaborating a bit more on Krishnamurti's notion of "the observer is the observed" and how it compares to the teachings of Ramana Maharshi/self-inquiry? Is the "observer" the illusory personal 'I'? So the "observed" would therefore also be the illusory personal 'I"?

quote of the thread

Before looking to get these spiritual questions answered, if I were you, I'd ask yourself what you hope to get out of these questions. Just getting more concepts, ideas, knowledge may not be of any use to you.