NEW11

@Nahm You both confirmed and rejected what I said at the same time, so "thank you" and "huh?". Furthermore, even if Bobby was talking about something else, alright. So if you want me to switch back to talking about "other types of love" just tell me "that's not what Bobby meant". I'll say "sorry, maybe I misunderstood" (like I said before - I thought she meant romantic love because of the way the problem sounded, if I was wrong, fine, I'm happy to see that). But if you want to talk to me about what I said, then talk to me about what I said, don't go about criticizing me for something I never said.

"In a natural thermodynamic process, the sum of the entropies of the interacting thermodynamic systems increases" "like poles repel, unlike poles attract." Shall is obsolete, redundant in both sentences. And you cannot make a new law of physics by adding a "shall". Just like you said, you cannot disobey a law of physics. But the fact that I am able (if I want) to hate my neighbor, shows me that "love thy neighbor" is not a law of physics, but a commandment, a "should". a moralization. It is not the word "shall" that is the key. "Ready-made boxes" - Nah, I have no boxes for people, I only have ideas that I dislike. Also I have no bad experience with regards to religious dogma. I even considered becoming a priest once - not because I believe, but because it pays well, at least in my country. You basically work 3h/day, and in a normal week (i.e. no funerals, no marriages, etc.) 4 days are completely free. Also, I never contradicted you. I was merely pointing out that while you were talking about universal love, I was talking about romantic love. That is why I said "you cannot be in love with yourself unless you are narcissistic". Sure you can love yourself, but that love isn't of a romantic nature. "Science and spirituality is a duality that can be dissolved with greater clarity." - Agreed. But I'm not one of those who rejects religion with science.

@Nahm The reason I saw BobbyLowell's question as implying "romantic love" is because when people say "that guy/girl can never be loved" they don't think of universal love, or the types of love that you're talking about (if you think they do, then you need to get out of the house more), they think about romantic love, they think about sex. Furthermore, I insist. There is no need to define other types of love, or the words "self" or "ego", as this is not what I've been talking about. If you want to start a new conversation with me, about that subject, fine. I do agree with everything that you say then. But I do not agree with mixing a conversation about "universal love" or "self love" with "romantic love", as they are quite different feelings, just as I do not agree with mixing a conversation about geometry with one about calculus. Just because they both are mathematics, doesn't mean they are the same. And if someone comes to you with a question about one of them, but your answer is about the other one, then the conversation makes no sense. It is pointless to keep talking about calculus and show me how versed you are in it if my question was about geometry. That's why it is shallow to keep telling me about self-love, universal love, etc. when it's clear that this is not what I'm talking about. Because you are completely missing my point (careful, I'm talking only about your conversation with me, not with BobbyLowell). And that's what I called "shallow" - the argument that you gave me - not the type of love you're talking about. Because when it comes to that love, I agree with everything you're saying. PS: Padawan is not a label (I mean not in this context). Hahahaha... I rolled on the floor when I read that.

Then tell her that. Tell her you don't know how you feel but you want her in your life. So you're afraid of her cheating on you? Would you still hold back if you knew she would be faithful? If the answer is "no" then maybe you want a relationship and you want to tell her "cheating is not allowed". If the answer is "yes" then maybe you don't have feelings for her, but just enjoy her company. This too shall pass, and you may find yourself just one year from now not even remembering exactly how she looked like. However, no matter what the answer is, if cheating is an absolute "no" for you, then I'd advise you against pursuing a relationship with this girl.

@Ian You obviously ignored what I've been saying. I was talking about romantic love, and you cannot be "in love" with yourself unless you are narcissistic. If you want to define love in some other way, then suit yourself. PS: Yeah, it is preachy. I mean what Jesus said was alright, but you can't make a "should" out of love. You can't force someone to love somebody else, no matter what type of love you're talking about. And punishing them for disobeying this with hell for eternity? Well, I'm sorry, but for all my dislike for "horrible people" in my initial comment, I dislike this a million times more. I find "love yourself" better said as "accept yourself" or even better: "know thyself".

Well yeah, "follow you feelings", as in "follow your heart", "follow your dreams". If you dream of being a philosopher, there's no use in taking an engineering degree just because it "looks cool", and if you dream of becoming a sage, then there's no use in gaming all day. In this situation, there are two people involved, so you have to take her feelings into account too. However, if you don't see yourself being with a girl like her, then there's no use in just sleeping with her. When I said "you have the possibility to give her a chance at a relationship", I meant getting to know each other and what both of you are like in a relationship. But do not confuse sleeping with her with the desire to have a relationship. Sexual attraction is like appetite for food. If you want to eat healthy, you don't give in to your appetite for burgers, but you learn to develop a better appetite for better food. So yeah "follow your emotions" not your cravings. PS: If she likes you, but doesn't want to sleep with you, she probably meant that she wouldn't just sleep with you without having a relationship with you. That may be the reason she finds the idea disgusting because the next day she would just feel "used".

@Nahm Ah... I see that my padawan joke has been ignored. There may be multiple uses of the word love that mean entirely different things. I get that you mean a "universal love" of sorts. However, it seems to me that the concern of BobbyLowell was romantic love. For me, that love is about "giving". Not necessarily giving materialist gifts, but giving your time, sharing your feelings, etc. In that context, you cannot be 'in love' with yourself without being a narcissist. To answer the question "can everyone be (romantically) loved?" by "you can love yourself" is to ignore the question. It's as shallow as if I asked "can everyone learn advanced mathematics?" and you looked to me and said "everything around us can be expressed through mathematics". I grant you that in another context that might be viewed as "deep", but here, it is shallow. When I initially answered the question, I took the meaning "romantic love" because in there I saw the challenge. Otherwise, my answer would've been "adopt a couple of cats". To say "everyone can experience other types of love" is no challenge really. But they are actually completely different feelings. The love I feel for my mother is not the same that I feel for my girlfriend, and the fact that they're both called "love" is just an unfortunate accident of this language. There should be two different words. I can say that I love my mother, and my father, even my dog, but I am only in love with my girlfriend. So what kind of love is that you direct to yourself? And wouldn't it be more accurate to call it "taking care of yourself", "growing yourself", "not being a doormat", (as in putting all the whims and wishes of others before you) "self-preservation", "accepting your flaws", "common sense" or something like that?

@Spiral Like I said, do what your feelings tell you to do. I merely wanted to remove your fears and make you aware, that every possibility plays out worse if you don't listen to them. If you had feelings for her and chose to ignore them, then the friendship would still be lost (because of the reasons I mentioned above) and the feelings would haunt you. If you don't have feelings for her, then it's easier to tell her that, even if she will suffer. If you pretend like you have feelings, then both of you will suffer far worse. I was not pushing you to pursue this relationship, but your feelings. So if your feelings point away from her, then follow them and leave her be. However, keep this in mind: if your feelings point to some place, then even if all the fears about pursuing them come true, it's still better than of what will happen if you do not.

@Nahm Words games do not bring about the truth. Love is not self, just as I am not art, even though I can paint, sing a song or play an instrument. You may say that "art is inside me", but that's only a metaphor, not truth. Enlightened masters are the ones who experience love at its fullest, after they have gotten rid of the self. The self does not exist. Love does.

@Helios I always saw love of self as narcissism. In my mind, love and self do not mix, as love should be about giving, giving to the world, to your partner, to your padawan, to your children, to your parents, etc. If you make a gift to yourself, that's not giving, that's just taking.

@Spiral I'm not saying that you should be with her if you don't want to. Just that if you're afraid to follow your feelings because you think this wouldn't work, that it's better for you to follow them. Furthermore, the excuse "the friendship will suffer afterwards" is a blind excuse. As you can clearly see, the friendship already suffers, because she has feelings for you, and if you think that you'll tell her "hey, I'd prefer that we remain just friends", and then everything will come back to normal, you're kidding yourself. Once she clearly understands that there's no chance with you, she will seek someone else and pay you less attention. When she'll spend time with you she won't make all the efforts that she does now. Now she does them because she thinks they will pay off and spring a relationship. But she won't "work" when you tell her that there won't be any payment. I've seen plenty of people say "I just want to be friends". From that day, the "friend" that they desired disappeared from their life completely. I'm not saying this will happen, merely that when she'll stop some of her efforts towards your friendship and then you may find the new friendship that you have with her is just as normal (and maybe even shallow) as every other one. So why walk the path where you don't get to see if your feelings for her can flower and you also lose the friendship? You never win with "just friends". Again, don't get me wrong, if you don't feel anything for her, you shouldn't be with her. But do not expect that the friendship will remain just as beautiful after destroying her hopes for a relationship. This is just an unrealistic expectation.

@Spiral A very good friend of mine always says, "give it a try, do you want to be plagued by the 'what if' question for the rest of your life? If you do this, at least you'll know if it would've worked or not, if you don't, all you have is an assumption and maybe regrets later on". I don't know how much I agree with him. However, I will tell you a short story from one that happened to another friend: I remember him telling me that he wants to date a girl who's just as smart or even smarter than him. He said that he could never be with a dumb girl, no matter how beautiful she'd be, because he wouldn't be able to talk anything with her or relate to her. Well... guess what. Apparently, he has plenty to talk about with a girl who can't locate Spain on the map to save her life. You never know your own potential until you develop it. You cannot know how a person acts in a relationship until you try it out. They can act completely different, so different that it blows your mind because the "relationship" status allows them to do things that they wouldn't normally do if they were "just friends", things they wouldn't even speak about. You've got time, why not give it a go? Have a "trial relationship" for a certain period of time that you agree upon, and then see if it works or not. If it does, upgrade to premium.

@Spiral Make yourself clear again. Sometimes a casual conversation is not enough. Have a serious one. And if you already had it, have one again. If you continued to hang out with her ever since you had the last conversation about this, and she felt great, she might be thinking that maybe you'll "soften up to her" or change your mind in some way. Tell her all that is on your mind, tell her what you wrote in your first post here, do not let anything go unsaid. Anyway, are you sure you have no feelings for this girl? I mean you came here and posted about this topic, so it's clearly an issue to you. If that happened to me, and I'd consider the girl "just a friend", I wouldn't bat an eye.

@Spiral Bad spot? Tell her the truth about how you feel! Or you'd rather have her hang around, hoping against hope. and wasting her time? Yeah, sure, she might not want to hang out with you after that, but it's better to let her move on with her life, and let her find someone who wants to be with her. Let her know that she should search for someone else. It is somewhat unethical if you know she expects something, you know that you can't give it to her, and you don't tell her: "It is but a shadow and a thought that you love. I cannot give you what you seek."

@BobbyLowell I'll assume you're talking about romantic love. Otherwise, this would be way too simple, I mean if someone says that "that guy can never be loved", you could say "well I love him like a brother", or "his mother surely loves him". "Horrible people". For them, they'll always be a reason to dislike you. If you learn to take joy in life, be happy and become enlightened, they'll say you only did that because you're poor. If you have money, they'll flock to you like birds but hate you for your success. When you fail, they'll leave you quicker than they came to you. If you gained your success by being smart, reading a lot of books and applying your knowledge in the real world, they'll criticize your appearance (there will always be something else to criticize). If you go to the gym and eat healthy and fix just everything else that you can fix about yourself, then they'll criticize some aspect of you that you can't change: you're too short, you're white, you've been born in a place and to a family that gave you more opportunities, so naturally you succeeded, while they did not (even if they actually know about what opportunities you had, they'll still assume things and criticize you). You look to these people and see that they find what they call "love". They find someone who fits all their shallow criteria and they are happy. While I'll admit that some endorphins are released into their brains, can they ever be as happy as someone who truly worked for their success or someone who is enlightened? Can they ever truly love, for their love turns to hatred as soon as one of their shallow criteria isn't met, and can they ever truly receive unconditional love from you, when they have so much hatred in their hearts? Are these the people that make your faith waver? They, who deal judgement, not realising that the judgement that they pass is actually not about the person that they point to, but about themselves. This kind of people will never know true love. _______________________________________________________________________________________ PS: I'd also like to tell you a short story, to make you see that what I'm saying isn't just taken from a dream and disconnected from reality. I remember, some time ago a friend told me: "It's easy to say 'everyone can be loved' when you're leading a wonderful life, blind to the hardships that others may face, that you do not. When you're dating hot chicks every other night, it's easy to look to someone who's not so fortunate and say 'he/she'll find someone', but in actuality, neither you or anyone you know would ever date someone like them. Would you ever date a fat girl? Or a blind girl? Or a girl that didn't have a leg?" - Well... in 2 months I'll be marrying a blind girl. And another story: I remember a friend telling me that he wants to date a girl who's just as smart or even smarter than him. He said that he could never be with a dumb girl, no matter how beautiful she'd be, because he wouldn't be able to talk anything with her or relate to her. Well... guess what. Apparently, he has plenty to talk about with a girl who can't locate Spain on the map to save her life. Even if you say "I'd never be with someone like that", you're not actually in full control of who you fall in love with. You never know what surprises the other person has up their sleeve. PS2: "How do I become strong and unbending in my belief that everyone can be loved???" - wrong question. Doubt is good, doubt is the beginning of wisdom. You do not just choose what you believe, you seek proof and you conclude what is the most probable truth from that. If you doubt your belief and you seek proof, then next time you talk to someone else, you'll be able to provide them counter-arguments or even change their mind. If you just believe, then even if you actually believe in what's true, that won't help you one bit. So if you really want to seek proof, then whenever someone says "a person like that can never be loved", I'm sure you could find 3 couples to point to, that would prove them wrong. You can go to the ones they criticize and actually try to help them. You may find that many of the ones that they criticize actually lead a better life than them. Furthermore, if your faith still wavers, you don't have to stay with these people. These are toxic, self-absorbed people. Find a better group of people to hang out with.