tsuki

@Ether Very strange. It's like coming to terms with uncertainty of existence by seeing that there is no reason to be certain of anything. It was a shift of perspective from: I know where I want to go, but don't know how and even if I did, I couldn't possibly execute that plan perfectly to get there. to I don't know where I am, so any path I take will take me to the exact same place. Too many things broke at once to say anything meaningful about it.

It all depends how you understand "practically". If you mean it as means to manipulate practical, everyday objects - there is none. You can't do anything new once you see the world as non-dual. If you mean psychologically, there is a vast difference. Once you see everything as part of yourself, you treat the world differently. Sure, you will die at one point, but you don't need to rely on heaven or hell to justify a "good" life. If you die - so be it. There is no need to fear death, or failure, as you embrace whatever happens.

"Norm" is the very same mechanism as "bias" and it is what we use to distinguish truth from false. It is a system of filters one applies to reality to "constrain" it and produce an illusion of control. Every conscious action can be viewed as a result of an (unconscious) bias, or norm. This illusion of control breaks down when one asks the question: "What norms are normal?", or to put it another way: "Which norms are good/true?". This cyclic dependency shows that logic cannot answer this questions and any norm is as valid as any other. For example: Is killing bad? Killing human beings must be bad, of course, unless we're defending something precious, like national identity. Is imprisonment bad? You can't imprison an unwilling person, unless he broke a law, or is declared insane by an expert and is a threat to the norm. Is stealing bad? Of course! Unless it is something that is rightfully ours, right? Even something as simple as self-expression can be seen as bias, as one may simply enjoy himself without presence or approval of other people. Even something as "accepting reality as it is" is a bias, as there is no reason to do so. Reason breaks down in real-world situations once one is willing to be honest with himself.

Coming back to your original definition, I think that there is agreement between us. There are no questions and answers, as what is gained by insight is space to make those. When one is ready to discard his simplifications of reality, he is open to look at what's left with more clarity and detachment. What I would add is that the process of thought is not fully experience-driven. Separate experiences are linked and the links are treated as something precious. As something to be expected in the present, or future. Care given to links distracts one from the present, as one tries to keep up with events that unfold and fit them into the expected scheme. This is ultimately grounded in distrust in ones ability to adapt. The Ego is scared, as it was hurt in the past. I think that the seeking is what heals the Ego. Not any specific path to Enlightenment, but the idea itself. The journey into the unknown with the intention to die. When one is completely ready to die, no links are necessary and the insight happens. This story, of course, is a link in itself.

Isn't wisdom enjoying things you need to do for your own good?

That is a difficult thing indeed. We sometimes even look back at our posts and see for ourselves that they didn't come off as we wanted them to . If I can't communicate what I think to myself, how am I supposed to communicate it to others? Haha What I came to realize is that there may be no end to illusions as we see no difference between them and reality. It may very well be what reality is made of. Ourselves! Deceiving ourselves that we are not making them up!

I posted this sometime ago, and I will quote myself if I may: In order to become Enlightened, you must choose a path. You need criteria to discard invalid paths. What are criteria to discard invalid criteria? Any criteria to do so would be criteria! There is no end to this cycle! Trust yourself. If something feels right, let yourself do it until it stops being right by itself. Growth is not a linear process and its power comes from combination of different methods. If you see that you get better by using Osho's methods - use them.

@Neo It has been a major revelation to me that thoughts are not limited to "the Voice" that narrates your life. I'm a bilingual person and I sometimes catch myself gluing together sentences from two different languages. Sometimes I think in English, sometimes in Polish. In my psyche reside different people that I converse with and come up with different sorts of concepts. This is a form of processing of experience and I think that it's a very important mechanism of my creativity. A major growth has occurred a few years back once I realized that their responses are my own. Ever caught yourself imagining an argument with your spouse? Yeah, try winning that argument when you know exactly what to say to make yourself angry, LOL. These whole personas in your psyche are what real people are made of as you meet them in the "physical" world. Did you ever wonder why other people misunderstand you? They have a model of you in their head and treat your words as something to fit into their model of you. You do that as well! This is what Ego is made of. Self-referential stories that fulfill themselves. Once you are angry at somebody, it is difficult to see their words as loving, as the model became "scary" or "annoying" and you annoy yourself with it. Even if they literally say "I love you", you may see it as sarcastic or said angrily. That they didn't REALLY mean it. There are different kinds of thoughts apart from language. That catchy song you heard on the radio that you play to yourself in your head? Yeah, that's a thought too. I imagine composers to think in original songs and write them down. Feelings are a form of thought that are ever-present in everyday objects or situations. Ever noticed that once you're angry, everything is irritating? That's a thought too, but it has no words content to it. "The Voice" on the other hand is very susceptible to emotions and drives all sorts of different narrations depending on the emotional content of the psyche. Even everyday objects are susceptible to emotions. A plate may become a thing to be thrown once you get angry enough. How the Voice is connected with feelings is a whole different story, as they are interconnected both ways and I don't want to dwell on that for too long. @Patang I may be getting ahead of myself again, but let me tell you a secret: there is no external and internal. Everything can be viewed from two different perspectives that cancel each other out. Everything is a huge process that has no beginning and end. This is the very nature of thought - to say that a part of cycle is the beginning, or an end. There also seems to be a shift in how you communicate ever since you posted your "done" thread. I like that, it seems more nuanced and open. Good job!

Has anybody mentioned Dark Souls? Fantastic game in itself, but what really got me hooked is the meaninglessness aspect. You play the game despite being beaten to a pulp every corner just for fun. Once you start to rush it to get to the end - the game starts to fight back so hard that it becomes completely unplayable. You have to sit and play it just for the sake of it and accept it. It's like hard determination sitting, but with a controller Brilliant!

So, to you they are some sort of divine revelation? The reality has spoken thing? How do you differentiate that from another layer of illusion? By the mere fact that you are absolutely sure of their correctness? The mystical aspect? Aren't thoughts like that too? Aren't you absolutely sure that you are understanding what I'm saying and not seeing some projection of your own understanding right now? Is that understanding a thought or an insight?

Don't let this sentence misguide you. Insight is no less and no more than a thought. In the same sense thought is insight-driven. Once an insight has occurred, one is more resistant to silly ideas taken from others and from the society and is free to construct original, more holistic thoughts. Thoughts that include more and more reality and do not see perspectives as good or bad. The more insights one experienced, the more he is willing to abandon his models of reality once it is apparent that they no longer work. Feelings are a great tool for evaluating thought systems. Negative emotions occur when reality does not conform to one's model. One may try to change reality to conform it, or change the models to make better predictions. When enough insights had occurred, one is more willing to change himself than dictate dogmas for others.

From my experience, Insight is thought-driven. Let me clarify: Thought is a meaningful "snapshot" of reality. Meaningful in a sense that it is taken seriously. It is not simply an "idea" to be held that may or may not be true. Thoughts are something to be taken AS reality itself. It is a prosthesis, or a substitute for what is real. Thoughts construct themselves to make reality simpler than what it is and to protect one from its perceived dangers. Insight is an occurrence when different thoughts are combined and cancel each other out, leaving one with a feeling that reality is larger and much more nuanced than one has previously thought. It is not a deliberate action, but rather an occurrence. One is not driving the insights. Insights occur when one is ready to accept them. They form as one matures and show one's own ignorance in a very loving way. Wisdom is made of insights that show reality for what it is. In a sense, insights and thoughts are two sides of the same coin.

You can stop yourself from eating shit once you catch yourself doing it. Effortlessly. Once nothing is meaningful, eating healthy is meaningless as well.

Oooh, I know that. It's like a weight of your life was lifted off your shoulders. Beautiful, isn't it? So you're saying that it's gone?

Did you share it on the forum? How was it like?

@Saumaya Tell me one more thing: how did you come to terms with you being "it"? I don't know your background, it may very well be the case that you sought it for your whole life and it was a great relief. After being deceived for so many years by yourself, aren't you weary of possibility of losing your insight and going to sleep again?

@Saumaya Oh, I see. You can put like that.

Can you elaborate on existential suffering? What do you mean?

This is what happened to me as well. Fist was the self, then there was the other, and then they started to merge which was a hit in itself. Once they merged over a few months, it hit me again. Thanks!

Is the order of these experiences important in your understanding? Or you simply experienced them in this order?

@Joseph Maynor I think that is it a very important observation that everybody seems to know what is true, but nobody seems to agree on what is truth. To ask what is truth is to ask "What is true about truth?" and then to try and find a single answer, which would be true, of course! This self-referential question "what is truth?" is the very essence of the mind that got here in the first place. It constructs reality by transcending it - by finding meaning where is none. It creates meaning out of thin air by making observable, direct phenomena something that they are not. It makes the monitor a forum, a keyboard mouth and a "moving image of the mind" a memory. This meaning-making machine is not lying, per se. What the mind has constructed may become false only by the very mechanism of transcendence, of changing meaning. Whatever you see and "understand" is true and very moment that it changes meaning you declare your past experience as "false". In short: "Truth is whatever stops you from seeking". Is that sentence true? Does it stop you from seeking? You can always ask more questions, do you?

Welcome home @Patang. The cycle has completed itself! You can see it! Congratulations!

@Saumaya Haha! What does it even mean to be near enlightenment? #TooMysticalIndeed @Shin Certainly! Know thyself!

@Saumaya I'm not really sure about that. There seems to be a speed-up once you are getting close to awakening, but there is no way to tell the reason for this. There is a shift in perceiving time once awake, so your speeding up may be just a perception. You may have gotten to the "right" path to you that led you there faster. There may have never been a path and it always played itself out by itself and you simply became aware of it. There are millions of reasons for any of the above statement and once you realize that everything is relative - you are not so confident in making such claims. There are no key points to led you to the place you are. There are only events that you can backwards-rationalize to produce any story that seems fit. It doesn't make the story false, mind you. It's a decision to be made once you are aware of it. This reasoning is circular. There is no logical way out of it. There are no rights and wrongs in this discussion.

@SOUL, @Faceless Your discussion can be summed up like this: In order to choose the path to enlightenment, you need a set of criteria to discard invalid paths. Criteria are up for choosing. What are criteria to discard invalid criteria?