tsuki

@Truth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonocentrism To control your own interpretation you have to interpret it. How do you interpret interpretation of interpretation? Can you control that? What are qualities of a good interpretation of an interpretation? @Outer So - your choice of enlightened masters is dependent on your understanding of what enlightenment is? You seek enlightenment because you don't know what it is and yet - you predicate your path on your lacking understanding?

@Outer And why an enlightened master would want to prove his enlightenment to you? Would you tell a Zen master to waltz into an fmri scanner for you? I think that you're being unreasonable. How many enlightened masters have done that?

And what if they actually are as enlightened as they think? Do you think that you are capable of recognizing an enlightened master? Isn't that an expression of your assumption that you are wiser than others?

@Outer How do you expect to put people on a path you don't understand? Not only you are trying to be wiser than others, but you also think that you outsmarted yourself. Isn't that a bit narcissistic?

Bingo.

That's how they fuck with you. They teach you where following the rules of society will lead you if you try to consistently follow them. They will have all sorts of absurd rules for you to follow and expect you to show them your true self while doing it. That is the point of zen. It's a joke you make of yourself while trying to become enlightened. Is actualized.org a zen monastery? What are the useful truths of a zen monastery?

Am I fucking around? Are you fucking around by not seeing me fucking around? Have you ever read any Zen koans? Zen masters are the ones that fuck around the most. Zen monastery is a place of seclusion of outcasts. It's a black hole of society. They outcast the so-called 'normal' people that may see through them.

All things are obvious as long as you're not looking hard enough. Even obviousness is obvious. Have you ever asked yourself what it means for something to be obvious? That thing runs deep into the root cause of arguments and Ego.

@Outer So - it is a matter of consensus to establish usability of a 'physical' truth. A person that does not follow the consensus is then ostracized to the point of exclusion and the consensus upholds itself indefinitely. Looks like science, doesn't it? How do you invalidate paradigms in this environment where everybody looks at everybody else? Society is a balanced ecosystem that incorporates outcasts. Do not outcast the outcasts.

The use of abstract spiritual terms lies first and foremost in their ability to make you look into yourself to find their meaning. Whatever you read from abstract spiritual terms is your projection upon them. They are a mirror.

@Outer Do lying imply malicious intent so that it requires 'calling out'? Even if somebody speaks invalid useful truth intentionally, they do that because of their own spiritual truth. There are people out there that ask questions to make people reflect on themselves.

How do you distinguish between saturation of the message and your interpretation of it that is dependent on your own ego doing its own thing? It is entirely possible to misinterpret two people sharing with each other and see it as an argument. To say that two people argue is to introduce the argument between them. To argue whether they argue or not.

Argument is when you are sharing something with somebody else for their own good. Sharing is arguing with yourself about whether you're right or wrong and need to see how other people react.

What is the difference between physical/useful truth and spiritual truth? It's like saying that your piece of a pie is better because it has a strawberry. My piece of pie is invalid as it contains chocolate that can be bitter and everybody knows that cakes cannot be bitter. We should use your cake instead as it is clearly superior. The more people use your cake, the more your cake is valid.

What if truth is a pie and you both have a piece of it?

@MarkusSweden I thought of this video when I saw the thread and I couldn't find it. Now I found the video and I thought of the thread. It contains the answer to why monks keep 'monking' after enlightenment.

To me, it started as curiosity. I really wanted to know how the world works. Then I came to be interested how I work. Then, there was the first awakening when I stumbled into something I didn't quite understand. After that, there was more curious thinking. Then, there was the second awakening. Then I learned the concept of Enlightenment. Then, there was third, fourth and fifth awakening. Now is now. I have nobody to think with and I don't know what enlightenment is.

It's not wrong to accuse other people of things. It's endless fun. Sorry for interrupting.

@Truth And what does your feedback tell you? Perhaps you could both listen to your projections for a while instead of accusing each other of whatever you're accusing? Hmm, @Faceless?

Then how do you understand the notion of progress? How do you even comprehend it at this level? What would you compare it to? Are your memories yours? How are they different from fantasies/unoriginated thought-images? I'm asking this in the context of your question about triggering the expansion of consciousness.

@cetus56 Yes, there are always facets that are obstructed by the current 'intent', or 'context' that reality has. Nothing about a cup makes it a cup. A cup is in relation to its possibility of emptiness. There is nothing about the cup that's empty. I am the emptiness of a cup. Not in the sense that 'I - this thing behind the eyes - think that this cup is empty' and without me the cup wouldn't be empty. It is in the sense that I am literally the cup. Out there, not in here, behind the eyes. The thought 'cup' is superimposed with the 'physical' cup. It is 'obvious' that it is a cup. It's 'cupness' is unoriginated. There is no need for 'word'-thought 'cup' to appear. I don't even need to notice a cup for it to be a cup. There can be thirst, and a cup can be a cup.

@Viking Tell me honestly: are you under the impression that you do any of this? Does it feel like you move your body? Do you think your thoughts?

@now is forever I don't think that there is any 'wanting' involved. It is perfectly mechanical and 'will' is just a manifestation of its operation. I also think that there is no way to train ego to do anything, as ego doesn't exist. Ego is like the periphery of your vision. The boundary between seen and unseen. It is in effect when you miss that you are all of it - the seen and unseen. Everybody, always, misses that. Even the nondual, enlightened folk. When you look at a cup to examine it, you are not aware what is at the other side of the cup. If you turn the cup around, it always has the other side that you don't see. You can stand in front of a mirror and look at the other side, but you are now looking at a mirror, not at a cup. Even worse, you are not looking at both sides simultaneously. You can still look at one side at a time. If you align a cup in a way that it would show you both sides at the same time - you will obstruct its reflection in the mirror. You always, necessarily look at something from a certain perspective. Even if you employ a mirror, which is a metaphor for self-awareness/the mind. So, you are always stuck at a certain perspective even if you know, that there is the other side. You may think that you're smart and know that there is the other side, but you never know how it will manifest itself, so you cannot take account for it. When you have a plan that accounts for your truth/perspective, the other side will manifest itself. If you greet it with curiosity and openness - you have to let go of your plan. If you greet it firmly and try to conquer it - you have to let go of the results. Knowledge will not let you recognize the other side. Intuition will. It is always different. It always goes meta on itself. There is no way to outsmart it, as you are it. @Preetom has experienced it as a dead, mechanical thing that runs. That is correct. The alive quality of reality comes from the fact that you defend yourself against the other side. The moment that you start to think that you are smarter than reality, it stops being dead and starts to be alive. The game is on and you are the prey. It will remind you of your place. It will dominate you and show you how insignificant your spark of consciousness is. The sharper and smarter you are, the smarter and sharper it is. It's in perfect balance, as the seen and the unseen are symmetric. You can only witness intelligence in its dead, mechanical, nature if you submit to it and help it. Not the other way around. Then, there is no benefit or utility in using it, but there is only beauty. The less you that benefits and controls is, the faster and faster it runs. The more beautiful it becomes. Pure bliss.

Will you elaborate on this? Why does life need a purpose? What is the purpose of having a purpose? Why does seriousness have anything to do with this?