Saumaya

@Feel Good No problem That picture is from Ken wilber's No Boundary book, I read that a while ago, its my favourite ken wilber book

I highly doubt it, while I agree that some shadow issues from blue can follow you, but you wont be functioning from that stage. I am already familiar with this vertical or horizontal thing, i just dont think they are fully mutually exclusive. 1st and 2nd tier is the standard model. Talking about a 3rd tier is completely unnecessary Nobody is a guru. People follow some people and give them authority, this marks the birth of the guru. There is no 3rd tier, what he may be talking about is this

@Preetom You can be enlightened without knowing about enlightenment. As long as the false self is working to end itself, enlightenment is inevitable, sooner or later. It might come as a shock because there are no words to describe it.

Gurus and every kind of authority

1)You are proving my point. You shouldn't take me as an authority as well. You are still disagreeing with me because ken wilber said it, not providing a reason( which he still explicitly doesn't ). This proves that for you, if a guru with a lot of followers would say it, it would be true. You are just going here and there looking for authority 2)Also if enlightenment can happen at any stage, by your logic, why look for enlightened behaviour from an enlightened person. Are you saying you suddenly transcend everything? That's ridiculous, think about it 3) For you attachment to beliefs is like, if a more cooler guru would say it, it would be true. So I shouldn't hold my ground just because ken wilber says it? Which he even doesn't. That's attachment to beliefs for you. One day I would say Truth is only One and it's in my direct experience, and you would say I am attached to my beliefs. Am I attached to my beliefs or not? 4) By watching the first few minutes, I know what will be discussed. I don't need to really watch the video. Even if he talks about 3rd tier, thats pure semantics. Anybody could be talking about the same thing with different meaning. My reason is simple, full enlightenment cannot happen at tier 1, because ego is not mature enough to fully see it's falseness. If it was, it won't be at tier 1. Unless you could provide me with examples or some good reason, why would change my stance? I know enlightenment requires a certain degree of maturity, and tier 1 doesn't has it.

Truth realisation is not a experience. After truth realisation, your understanding of enlightenment would be perfect. Your degree of articulation may vary. If someone is truth realised, they would use the word experience. For them they didn't just read up about enlightenment. They are a living example of it. But if you can suggest a better word for it, that would be another thing.

1) This not an intellectual debate. Rather than speaking from experience, you are posting ken wilber videos as an authority to prove your point. I am speaking from experience and my understanding of enlightenment is perfect. 2) I have said that you can have minor awakening experiences in tier 1 but not full enlightenment. Rather than stating your reason for a contrary argument, you are posting a ken wilber video. And again the video you posted doesn't seem to refute my point 3) Your definition of research seems to me is blindly following someone. You haven't given me any reason why my reasoning is incorrect I would be very happy to have a proper conversation about this and I am willing to change my stance if you could give me some evidence or reason. You don't seem to be doing that

What's the contradiction? Relativism should lead you to see the hierarchy much more clearly

It's stage yellow. Stage green still thinks it's right Even yellow can be identified. The thing is, yellow sees it while the stages below cant

Stage blue is too authoritarian and compliant Stage orange is materialistic Stage green is inefficient in seeing the big picture These stages might have awakenings but not enlightenment I guess. They are too preoccupied with the world to question the nature of themselves and reality Only stage yellow is relativistic. Relativism will lead you to question relativism itset. If everything is relative, and each perspective is just a perspective. What is the one thing that is not relative. Stage yellow gives the proper maturity and base for enlightenment, setting up for stage turquoise

@Joseph Maynor Generally newer people in personal development have conduct like this. Anyway it's fine, you can't expect everyone to be well developed and mature because, you don't know what the other person went through or what is their background

You need teacher for half baked awakening, not enlightenment. Enlightenment is clear as day. Even if you go to a teacher, it won't change anything

Then what is enlightenment lol

@Jack River yes, that would break the communication

Yes, a two way communication will lead to greater understanding of both the parties

The different perspectives of diamond thing is for expressing the truth. Not truth itself. I'm talking about Absolute Truth here, not a relative one. Truth as truth cannot be expressed, expressing it in dualistic language will lead to the diamond thing

@Jack River Even if the other party's perspective is pretty much incorrect. The synthesis can lead to greater understanding of the correct perspective. The key is to try to understand where the other person is coming from. Trying to be right is never the way. It's like blinding our eyes. If both or even one of the party is ready, some kind of union would happen.

Definitely, identifying with a perspective will lead to preserving and defending that perspective, and not see the other perspective clearly.

Maybe. What I meant is, criticism, can lead to synthesis of two different perspectives. In the end it comes down why someone is critising. As I said, being right doesn't matter, and, that is like experience fighting itself as Joseph said.

I agree, I guess criticism can be necessary sometimes but it's best not to get lost in it too much, losing what we originally were meant to criticize. Criticism gives rise to thesis and anthises which leads to synthesis. That's the only thing it's good for

@Fuku for an average pursuit of enlightenment, excessive enlightenment work can be an escape. For a serious seeker, living your day to day life will become escapism.

@BestSelf i don't recommend you do them together. Unless you have a lot of free time even after work. Still it's not recommended from my standpoint. Your work might suffer if you do too much spiritual work.

Never really got the whole point of the video. Maybe I still don't understand the meaning of the word untenable lol. Imo criticism in the end is meaningless, because, in the end it's dualistic. Sometimes, criticism is not the way to go, sometimes being right doesn't matter. It depends where criticism comes from, is it from a place of being right, or a place of expressing your ideas that could help somebody. As long as the content is challenged properly and in some cases criticism being constructive, it can lead to growth of both the parties.

Truth realisation is not subjective. Truth is impersonal. Absolute truth is not bound by personality structure. I agree that some shadow issues will still remain, as personality structure is transcended not removed. Enlightenment can reduce your shadow issues, but it won't increase them. Enlightenment doesn't come in many shape or forms, again, to say that would be to say there are more than one absolute truths; that is ridiculous. It is personality structure which varies from person to person. This is just my personal opinion, but I don't think tier 1 people can achieve proper enlightenment. Personality structure has to be mature enough to see it's falseness.

If there are fans of Jed McKenna. They are literally going against what he advocates by being his "fan".