WaveInTheOcean

@Aware Okay. You are right. If someone, let's say a raper, has the view that he is a seperated self, a seperated do'er that (for example) can decide to rape another self, then yes, that view is logically wrong. Simply because: 1. there is no seperated self 2. which leads to the realization that he as a person has no free will (and 2. also leads to 1. following logic). However the fact that the raper has this view is not wrong nor right. It just is. What I'm saying is: The view in itself is wrong, yes. The fact that he has the view is neither wrong or right, it just is. He has the view, therefore he has it. The raper did not decide to have this wrong view ... because there is no raper, ultimately. "Why does the raper has this wrong view"? ... "Because of ignorance" ... Yes sure, I agree... "Why is he ignorant?" ... Can't answer that question fully. He didn't chose to be at least. Just like you and I didn't chose to see clearly. Can he become not-ignorant and see clearly? Yes, he can. Will he? Only time will tell. "Therefore I stated that the right view is: This situation is a result of previous situations, and this situation will lead to the next. We are the result of our thinking, heirs of our thinking, the accumulation of our thinking." True.

@Egoisego @kurt and others.

"The view is therefor in itself not wrong, its wrong by its results that are either in or not in accordance with the law of impermanence, that proof the view being right or wrong)" You say that raping is not in accordance with the law of impermanence. You say partying and drinking is not in accordance with the law of impermanence. This is your own egoic intrepetation. It's not a universal intrepetation. "I say: There is a right view, and a wrong view, based on the fact that All views, no matter which view one has, ultimately can be said about them: They still suffer" I agree from my own egoic perspective that suffering = bad, and thus all views that lead to suffering = wrong. However, from God's perspective suffering is natural -- nothing wrong bout that. I have nothing against your way of teaching enlightenment. It seems full of wisdom and I agree with lots of it. Yet, your way of teaching enlightenment is not _the only way_. There are many ways. And I can assure you that detachment from things will happen in any case. For example, you are against psychedelics for self-development/enlightenment. I'm not. Yet, I don't claim you can't become enlightened without psychedelics. Just in the same way, I hope you don't claim that psychedelics cannot be of any benefit at all for someone. But something tells me you might claim that.

The sense of being a seperated self is not an illusion. The ego itself is not an illusion, just as a thought is not an illusion, a sound of a drum is not an illusion, seeing a car drive by is not an illusion etc etc. What is illusion then? The illusion happens when you, beyond the sense of feeling like a seperated individual, also begins to think about this feeling, and actually starts to think: "Hey, this is me, I am this body or this ego. I am an artists, I am a teacher, I am student" etc etc etc. Nothing you percieve is an illusion. Everything you think about what you percieve = illusion. ... The thoughts themselves though (The sense of them) is are real enough..it's what the thoughts contain of meaning to your true self that is an illusion. For example thoughts telling you that your name is XXX and that you are business owner ... that's an illusion... Cos you are not that. You are nothing (and thus everything). A cat only percieves. A cat doesn't think about what it percieves. Humans have gained a gift: Complex language and thus complex thinking. Our ability to think and reflect over what we percieve is both a gift and a burden.

Be careful listenting to what Prab says here. It's all symbolism. I like to speak of these matters more directly. While "more directly" may be more conrecte than the symbolic wording that Prab uses, it is still all symbolism though.. It's all concepts... Words can never replace a direct experience. Enlightenment of the mind can only happen if there is a very high degree of awareness present within the mind the moment the no-mind-non-experience (ego death) happens. In fact no-mind-non-experience happens for everyone daily: going to sleep and waking up. The thing is just that the brain is wired to minimize the awareness of the mind to zero just before sleep happens. This idea naturally explain why none can remember the experience of falling asleep. When mind death happens when high awareness is present there is a mind seeing the kill (just before the no-mind-non-experience) and there is a mind seeing the rebirth (just after the no-mind-non-experience). The mind naturally gains a dramatic shift in perspective after having witnessed its own death and rebirth. The mind can thus directly see that it comes out of nothing. When a mind has fully realized (= seen) that it comes out of nothing, a mind naturally becomes enlightened... A mind thus sees for itself that it itself is just a temporary gateway between consciousness and happenings (experience). That consciousness and happenings will never cease to exist because it has always been and will never not be. A mind thus sees its own true nature as a gateway, and thus it also sees that such a gateway can be shut down anytime ... -- eventually one will be permanently shut down (physical death happens for everyone) -- just as one can be opened at anytime (new creatures with complex nervous systems are being born every second -- if not on this little insignificant sphere of dirt and water we call Earth then on some other planet of the 500+ trillions of stars in the observable universe (500,000,000,000,000+). This conclusion can one rationally come to just by using pure logic (combined with radical open-mindedness). Of course logic + direct experience -> direct experience alone -> logic alone. So is God/consciousness blind to itself? The answer is both yes and no. If you think about it long enough, you'll see that it can in no possible way be either "yes" or "no" alone. Yes, pure empty consciousness needs a pretty developed mind (=a highly developed organism, we currently only know one= humans) to see its own nature. The world/reality you find yourself in is fundamentally dualistic. If anyone says it's non-dualistic they have no deep understanding of reality. Non-dualism is simply the pure (clear vision) study of reality (= dualism) from an imaginary "outside" perspective of reality. To fully understand yourself, you have to first fully lose yourself. To become fully sane, you have to first become fully insane. To fully understand the dualistic nature of the world, you need to have experienced seeing yourself leave the world and come back again ... You leave the world and come back again everyday (sleeping and waking up)... Problem is : No awareness present... Combine awareness and departure and you will get it.

"Are You Controlling Your Consciousness" You are a no-thing that is conscious. Consciousness can't be controlled and it cannot be not controlled either. "Are You Controlling Your Mind" Both yes and no. Depends on perspective. From your perspective in daily life I hope you feel like you control a lot of what is going on. I also hope that you are sometimes able, for example when sitting for yourself and contemplating about the nature of reality, to shift your perspective above your daily life and see that 'you' don't control a damn thing of what's going on. EDIT: If you go even deeper, you may also be able to see things from a perspective where you realize that You (with a capital Y) actually control absolutely everything.

@key"Better yet ask yourself who you are without intellectualising an answer" I ask myself that question quite often. And even after hours of thinking, I can never come up with an answer that I confidently can label as true. Still, whoever I am, I surely seem to enjoy discussing my perspective on it anyway. :-) My best answer, which I don't cling to as a truth, is that I am a no-thing that experience all experience.

I agree largely with Motus' perspective on things presented in this thread. I chose to participate in this thread anyway, because I see a somewhat dogmatic presentation around the perspective presented. I just wanted to point out the following: Ultimately no perspective presented in the universe -- by anyone -- is better/more right/truer than any other perspective. Litterally any. The only True perspective is the just-above perspective. That is to say, the only True perspective is that no perspective is more right than any other perspective. I guess it takes a lot of open-mindeness to fully realize this. I could argue for hours over why it is so, but I won't even bother. Figure it out for yourselves. I may contradict myself several times... There's a simply explanation for that: The ability to see things from different perspectives and not hold any perspective to be ultimately true :-)

It is possible to desire "something" without attaching yourself to that "something". It sure ain't easy, but it's possible. When you're enlightened, yes you don't attach to anything ... but you don't detach from anything either so to speak

"If a man would move the world, he must first move himself." -- Socrates. I won't judge whether you have found the way or not. I don't know. All I'm saying is, be open to the idea, that you are not seeing the full picture of reality. When you put out wordings like "I can only show the way" it sure as hell does sound like you feel like you have figured it all out. Maybe you have. Maybe not. Again. Take care, as will I. I should get some sleep and spend less time on this forum. Cheers. EDIT: I understand. Communication of one's perspective on things to other people is a fascinating diffcult task indeed.

I am not angry at all. Frustrated a tad maybe:D Why should I be angry upon you? You take care too. I appreciate you took the time to answer my questions.

Finally something useful. This quoted here is a clear message that is arguably true and useful. Thanks.

Is your answer Bob? What/who is Bob? An ego? An I? You just said there are no seperated I's. Does Bob have free will? Did Bob decide to become ignorant of the mentioned fact that he is Awareness? If Bob someday becomes conscious of the fact that he is Awareness -- did Bob choose to become conscious of this? ------- Is your answer Awareness? So Awareness chose to become ignorant of the fact that it is Awareness? This one sounds better right? There is no Bob in the first place. Bob is an illusion. There is only doings within, by and created by the Supreme Awareness, aka God. So when Bob is ignorant of the fact that he is Awareness, it is actually just Awareness playing a little game with itself; that it is Bob and not awareness. Right? In that case, what the fuck is your point with this thread, mate? You say many suffer and live in illusion. Yet, you say there are no separated individuals. And you also say we are all one. ----- Look, Motus, you have not figured anything out at all. And I don't claim to have either. You talk about how it's important to drop all attachment. How about you drop this very obvious attachment of yours to the confusing teachings you are writing here? You say evolution is not real. Could it be that is both real and not real at the same time? Could it be that everything is just a matter of perspective? From a logical perspective -- trying to model reality and understand it in terms of langauge -- then evolution is 100% proven to be what is going on. Yet, at the same time, the fact that we are sitting here on this Earth having this discussion should tell one something... That reality is mystical as fuck... So returning to evolution.. from the highest perspective the idea of evolution may just be a silly idea, and actually every mutation that has happened in genes was not random but determined to happen, and by so, we are all children of God and God's plans. Somehow, God's plan include people living life where they believe they are a body-mind. There's really nothing wrong about it. You talk about how there's something wrong about the current situation on Earth... Yeah sure from my perspective a lot of shit is wrong... But I'm open enough to realize that from other perspectives of my own little egoic, for example from a very, very high perspective (God so to speak) everything that happens here on Earth, even all the suffering and "evil" shit: It's all one big harmony. All is perfect. Reality is perfect as it is. No need to change it... And yet we feel a need to change it, and I feel you man.. It would be great if all could find their inner love and happiness by seeing that they are not their body nor their mind ... But mate, become one with the Truth for yourself first,, you obv have a long way to go, and I'm not saying this to bash to you, but I'm saying it as kindly as I can. You are very obviously attached to these concepts of yours.. drop it man.. don't hold it as Truth.. Don't bash duality. Don't become a zen devil. Embrance reality as it is. Love yourself. Find yourself... you will discover you can't... And then live a happy life, do what you want. If you want to teach others, then do it, but don't do it the way you currently do it. You are so confusing to read. Look at what you have written: "Nothing is not you. Nor is everything you. That from nothing not comes something, and from something not nothing, let that be clear. That Awareness is not something, does not mean it is nothing. That it is not nothing, does not mean its something or a combination of it. Another reason is, from nothing comes not something, due to that Awareness wasn't born, and is not equal to nothing or something, but supreme due to being all pervasive, which is nothing not, and something not. These are polarity based." I mean what the actual fuck do you expect people to get out of this? "But at least, let there be a few who do can understand it quickly." I assure you, no one on this forum have got any larger understanding of reality by reading what you have written in this topic. My last post here. have a good day.

If everyone suddenly fully realized they were the Supreme All-Pervasive Awareness, then what? Maybe no more rapings and such ... But which game is it that stops exactly? "I state, that rather someone wants it or not, that these things happen due to ignorance of the fact that we are Awareness." Let's say we have a dude, let's call him Bob, that is ignorant to the fact that he is "Awareness" (whatever that might be) just like everyone else is. Motus ... In the case of our friend Bob here, who/what is it that is ignorant of the mentioned fact? What's your answer? EDIT: Btw, to say the "I"-illusion is created out of passions is an absurd statement in my humble view.

Me too. I know everything is interwoven, yet I can't see it. Is your point that if a woman goes home from a party and someone rapes her... then it is was what she wanted? Because it happened? Because she is the raper and the raper is she? There is only One? Only doings? Only happenings? No do'ers? Only God playing a game? Everything is interwoven? How can you get out of the game? By dropping all ideas, all attachments and just fully accepting what is?:) I guess that's a way to view it. Gotta smoke some stuff at some point I guess. cheers. EDIT: Which psychedelics have you taken Motus? Give me some information on how you have recieved all this knowledge.

Good question. Let's first differentiate between mind and consciousness. Mind = talking, emotions, thoughts ... Consciousness = You .. The non-located no-thing experiencing the mind. Your mind/brain/ego is of course separated from mine because your brain is at another location in this world. Now here comes the really strange part. You are the self-aware non-located no-thing (consciousness/nothingness) experiencing one....... mind. I am ,,,,,,the self-aware non-located no-thing (consciousness/nothingness) experiencing another mind. So You are I and I am You. The Law of One. We are all one. Unity. etc etc etc Two ways to attack the problem: - We are One, but yet, this Infinite One has infinite minds attached to it and it can only experience one mind at a time. - We are One, but yet, this Infinite One splits itself up into many finite One's, which each has a mind attached to it. You are one part of the Infinite One, I am another part of the Infinite One. Both ways can't explain reality fully though. They are both lackluster. So the question: "Why do I have this experience and You have another experience" can't be answered. If it could be answered fully, then reality wouldn't be infinite.

"The goal of the game, is to spiral out of the game, and to Attain the True self for higher experiences." What if there are no ultimate goals? Life is a game. You can never stop playing. You can die/kill yourself but this is merely like a piece in Ludo that dies, and then God rolles a dice, wooah it's 6, new piece comes in. "I also wonder rather people do not experience already that they are multi "incarnated" intelligences? That are converting different planes of existence already through their "Dreams" that are to real to state to be a dream, feeling parts of them die as if family died, which is just another part of them on a different plane of existence." What you call The True Self was never born so it could never die. It's not a thing. Yet, Nothingness is what you are, yes you. It's this nothingness that experiences everything. It's also out of nothingness that every experience is created. And thus every experience happens "inside" nothingness. "The true star of the game, your True self, is the Supreme that governs all your worlds. Your true self is your ultimate guide and protector in this game." A true star, an ultimate guide, a protector? Interesting properties to give nothingness. But whatever floats your boat. "So let this article be a call, knowledge for your True self, a signal that this all is grand scale and highly complex." Yes, reality is infinitely complex... not just "highly complex". Knowledge is for mind, not for the True Self. The mind has knowledge which it can store and proces, which the True Self then experiences. "I am saying that there is no vast source, so for example its more likely that those believers in that we come from monkeys, themselves were once monkeys and other animals in form of intelligences (spirit), and find it plausible that all came from apes, it is more likely that that is true, then that we actually truly come from apes. Awareness was already, so one of those people might have had some experience about previous creations of himself, and accidentally believed it was for all. Comes up with a logic and so on. And is at that moment just in yet another game." Just like your ideas here is another game. Those "believers" .. "themselves" were once "monkeys" Which believers? Who is it inside a biologist that may once have been a monkey? ... Actually I think my main problem with with this discussion, is that I simply don't see the point with this thread:D Just like I haven't seen a point with any of your comments posted on this forum so far. I have thought about putting you on ignore, because everytime I read a post from you, I feel like I have wasted time. Just like I have done now. Jeez.

Motus, you sound like you got it all figured out. My advice to you: - Sit down and ask yourself if you really understand who you are, and how the "game" functions. Could it be that it's all just ideas in your head that are actually hindering you on your path? You seem to be pretty attached to these ideas you postulate here on this forum. Try to become deeply aware of the fact that all you post here is just that: ideas created by your mind. And then embrace reality, embrace the not-knowning, and dive into it... It's when one fully incoporates the"I actually don't know -- I have no clue -- but I'm open to whatever it might turn out to be"-mindset into the heart that true greatness can be allowed to arise out of nothingness. Frustration and fear may be the first reactions though, but it'll pass. I can recommend "The Book of Not Knowing" by Peter Ralston. I for one haven't bought Leo's booklist, but everyone knows this book is on the list as Leo has has given credits to Ralston in some of his videos.

Okay, I just watched it again. It's one big pile of crap:D Watch at 03:02 where he talks to the camera and is clearly not focused, but then suddenly he sees the wind is coming , and then he quickly turns around and acts.

Thx for link. Heard 2 mintutes of him. I'm sold. Seems like a wise guy. The youtube comment: "The whole gig spelled out about as well as it can be in under half an hour. Truly unbelievable. It is easy to become complacent in semi-disinterested patterns, where I mostly don't really care what's going on, and a silent wisdom operates more or less skillfully, yet layers of a veil remain pulled over. Your words are a precious reminder of the full recognition of aloneness. That a shudder may course through the body shaking off this fear of being alone that awaited in the shade beneath the arc of self and other. To reveal the inspiration and love of what is true beyond the pettiness of temporal forms. To remind of the power of directionless faith. And to set fire to the subtle arrogance of complacency until any usefulness seen in these videos disappears to reveal only a joyous homage" is nice as well.

I don't know. I just want it. The why-questions aren't really relevant.

But could you elaborate your opinion a bit while you are here? How should one, according to you, maneuver on the path? You said something about doing it with others, in a sort of social setting?... Could you eleborate? I'm interested on all views on this matter, and you seem to be wiser than the average dude on this forum.

As a mataphor, the opposite could - for some - be equally true. You know nothing. I know nothing. After all I find it a bit funny that you're criticizing this forum and its purpose so much, while you are still here having a discussion with me. If you dislike this forum so much, why the heck are you still hanging around? Go away! Unless there is still some part of you that enjoy wasting time here.