WaveInTheOcean

My take on all this. First of all Leo, my dear dear friend, Spiral Dynamics is nice, and it's pretty accurate on a lot of things. On an other hand, it's just a fucking model, and like all models it has it flaws. It's inaccurate in some areas. I like Spiral Dynamics actually. It's cool as fuck. But it feels a bit like you've in the last few months has made Spiral Dynamics almost into a religion:) hehe Jordan Peterson is a special human being, that's for sure. Let us not idolize the man. But I must admit, I like him. But he has his flaws. Especially the flaw that he doesn't know that God is himself hehe, that's the ultimate flaw, that most ppl have, they think they exist as an individual separated from God or separated from "the mechanical universe". Anyway, if we ignore that, he's actually spot on with a lot of things. I actually see him at stage yellow. He's definitely not at stage blue, cmon. He's not orange either nor green. I feel like he's a pretty clear yellow who has still long to go to get to turquoise. But remember, Spiral Dynamics is just a fucking model, and it's not accurate on all areas. JP is a man who is hard to give a colour. But to call him blue is a joke imo. And Leo, in his newest book he's actually talking a good bit about Eastern philosophy, i.e. Hinduism and Taoism, so yeah. And yeah Leo "Someone like JP cannot accept the deeper truth that all morality is a human invention ", actually I think he can. But you know, if something is a human invention, it's also an invention of God, right? Cos human is a dream dreamt by God, so all 'human' moral constructions are also Godly constructions. Look. Life/reality is a game, a dream. But there are arguably better ways to play it than others, just as there are better ways to play the piano, or better ways to play a PC game like World of Warcraft. I feel JP realizes this and teaches this important point to all the green motherfuckers who are way too posmodernisttic and relativistisk and naiv ly believes that all ways are equally "good" ways to live life, while not even realizing that life is a fucking game/dream. My point is that you are in human form. That's the dream you are in now. And inside the game human is biology. We are social beings. It's hard to just become completetly free of attachments to human programming from biological evolution. To do this yoi gotta meditate in a cave for 50 years or take 5-MeO. Most ppl will never do this. So JP is important, because he is really coming from a Darwinian natural evolution-psychology standpoint - so to speak - and telling young guys some basic facts: ITS IMPORTANT TO EARN SOME MONEY. ITS IMPORTANT TO HAVE FRIENDS. ITS IMPORTANT TO WORK ON YOURSELF. ITS IMPORTANT TO STAND UP FOR YOURSELF. ITS IMPORTANT TO TELL THE TRUTH AND NOT LIE. ITS IMPORTANT TO BE OPEN THAT YOU MIGHT BE WRONG. ITS IMPORTANT TO HAVE SOME ROUTINES. ITS IMPORTANT TO EXERCISE AND STAY HEALTHY AND EAT AND SLEEP WELL etc etc etc, all points he's making in his newest book. JP is a good intelligent fellow, a bit too conservative to my taste, he's not alan watts hehe, he's not Leo either, but he's a much needed guy in the world, which is becoming a bit too posmodernistc while not making the full realization, that even existence itself is a hoax, a trick, a game, a joke.

if you feel like everything is pointless, then you have two options 1. go hardcore spiritual, take 5-meo-dmt or any other psychedelic and see for yourself that in fact there is no point, which is the point, and that's so beautiful :> 2. watch Jordan Peterson videos, forget about spirituality and try to lose yourself in the game of life.. i.e. start working on yourself, turn chaos into order as Peterson says, focous on self-development, work out, run, educate yourself, get a good job, get a good house, become a good friend, get good friends, date, get a woman, get children, and that will all feel very meaningful to you, at least when you get your dream wife and children... then maybe later in life it will begin to feel pointless again, and then you can take 5-meo. (3.) combine 1. and 2., i.e. realize life is meaningless, a game, and still play it sincerely, like when a piano player plays the piano.. it's just play, but it's sincere:)

What is the name of that psychedelic? And in which way is it more powerful than 5-MeO-DMT?

Maca , https://examine.com/supplements/maca/

"Explaining", "criticizing", using phrases like 'Ok. What I wanted to show is that your argument, ...' is indeed debating, don't fool yourself :-) Everything we talk about here is just concepts, it's not enlightenment. Some concepts are better pointers than others (depends on the student a lot). So when Leo says he doesn't want to discuss it too much, he's just being clever, in the sense that it's utter pointless to discuss. The same goes for Buddhism and all other spiritual schools. It's not the absolute truth. Nothing that can be spoken is the absolute truth. As Alan Watts say so eloquently: But anyway, it's still fun to discuss I guess So how does nature develop consciousness then?=) What does nature even mean to you? It certainly doesn't seem to mean the same to me. To me human beings are also nature. Everything is fundamentally nature, and your distinction between 'nature' and 'artificial' is rather silly if you really think about it. Saying that something is made out of nothing is IMO not a dualistic concept but rather a non-dualistic idea. Dualism is when you differentiate between two opposite poles and say they don't have anything to do with eachother. For example: black/white, good/bad, something/nothing. We have to be careful we're not just playing word-games here. Appearance and emptiness is indeed the same. And everything is appearances, so fundamentally everything is empty/nothing. You say things don't exist on their own, well, how do they exist then? Dependent of the observer? Well, isn't the observer and the observed the same thing then (you cannot have one without the other)? If that is so, then it's all one, and everything you see is yourself, and yet 'yourself' is nothing, so everything is nothing, everything is appearences, and they are only real if you take them for real. I think you and Leo are pretty much speaking about the same thing, you're just getting lost in words.

To be brutally honest with you guys ... No there is no special 'way' in which reality works. It's all perspectives and mind-layering upon reality. Just take a concept like time. The human brain works obviously by having a deep belief that time is a real thing. Yet science and Einstein tells us that time is a complete illusion. A trick. There is no such thing as time, except for the feeling of time that the human brain lays upon reality. If there is any way in which reality works it can be summed up into a few words: deception and tricks, hide and seek & infinite.

Arrangements of molecules cannot become conscious of course (because everything is fundamentally consciousness). But special arrangements of molecules and energy is indeed what can create an illusion of being a separate self. That which is conscious of this self (and everything else) is indeed that which cannot be understood through language, i.e. consciousness/the tao/awareness etc.

even though materialism is fundamentally wrong, you can still talk about 'stuff' like carbon and oxygen etc if it makes sense to do so. Awareness/Consciousness/Being/Nothingness is everything, but you still need some special arrangement of 'stuff' to create self-aware beings...i.e. illusory selfs.

Well, what you call 'nature' seems to have done that. Just slightly different. Nature took some carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen, cobbled it together, got some cells, cobbled them together, got a body and a brain, programmed it with some DNA - genetics - which is also just biomolecules of C H N O and set it to execute certain things by conducting electricity through ion-flow in neurons, and boom bam, a conscious animal is born.

Exactly. Now, how do we do that? Also note that human minds are also digital, it's also all 1's and 0's, neurons firing or not firing. How does the human mind convince itself it exist? Survival? The sensation of having free will? Emotions? but how.

The distinction you're making between natural and unnatural is arbitrary. If the planet Earth is natural, and bacteria are natural, and monkeys are natural, and humans are natural, then surely, 'stuff' that humans create could also be considered natural, right? Let's say that humans are 'organically created and developed by consciousness'. If that is so, then humans must be governed by consciousness, and thus everything humans make (eg. AI/hardware/software/) must also be organically created andd developed by consciousness.

Who or what has the possibility of reincarnating as something, exactly? Nothing reincarnates as everything which reincarates as nothing. It's happening right now ... and you are that. You are also an artificial intelligence. Artificial in the sense that it's simulated and illusory, which life is, everything is. You are subjectively aware. So of course AI can become subjectively aware. Just a matter of time.

https://www.amazon.com/Book-Taboo-Against-Knowing-Who/dp/0679723005 Seriously a great book. read it.

" Look until you get destroyed by its infinity!" Infinity is so overwhelming - thank god every day that you are just finite human. I understand you. I really do. It's pretty harcore. However, you should realize that infinity is only overwhelming compared to the ego, compared to the illusory separate self that wants to exist. To that ego, 'absolute infinity' is a motherfucker-threat, cos realizing that reality/you is actually infinite - like REALLY FUCKING INFINITE - implies that this ego is: illusory (i.e. non-existant in the first place) and thus doesn't matter. To you, to the ego, this realization feels like death. But by reading your trip rapport one can read through the lines that you - as the ego - actually resisted this killing... the ego didn't die completely... It was about to get its head chopped off when you a voice inside your head started screaming "I CANT TAKE INFINITY, IT'S TOO OVERWHELMING. I JUST WANT TO BE HUMAN.' and thus you resisted tapping into the matter of actual infinity itself (resisted the death of your ego). Thus to me, it seems like you only saw infinity, you didn't become it. But still a big step. Contemplate and take a break from psychedelics, im sure at some point you will be ready to surrender completely.

you already have peace, fulfillment and freedom from it all. it's your seeking that creates the suffering. cos the one who seeks is the self - it's you. stop. just stop. and you will be fine. you've always seeked peace and fullfillment. earlier in life maybe through social interactions and/or materialism. now you seek elsewhere... spiritually, meditation, conceptual ideas about reality/life ... and it's all good and all, but all the meditation and teachings all try to show you that you just have to stop and give up to be fullfilled. It seems counterintuitive, too obvious, too simple. Yet the truth is that when your mind is at rest - no activity, no desires, no restlessness, no seeking - then you'll be fullfilled. Everything you 'get' in this life will be lost again, you will die. If you stop clinging to anything, including goals like "being at peace in the future', then paradoxically that 'stopping' will be what's needed for you to be at peace and okay with everything. stop. but when I think about it, you can't stop before you've realized your true self is nothing (and thus everything, consciousness). as long as you think you are 'something', then fullystopping would be imply death, and that's not so nice. realize what's necessary to realize. then stop.

Don't worry, really, even if you panic at some point and get scared/bad trip -- which probably won't happen, you seem well-prepared -- all that is gonna happen is that you will have a hard time for some hours and then you will come back to your sober state again and be able to think clearly about why you freaked so much out ... and as you ponder about that you'll grow a lot, cos you will see it was for pretty silly reasons that you freaked out;) There is no reason to panic. LSD is super safe, you can't overdose on it. You will ALWAYS come back. Always. It's a myth that you can be stuck in a trip. Also you won't do anything that's really stupid while on LSD as long as you're in an environment you know and that you know is safe (your home) If you at any point really, really panic, just remind yourself that it's going to get over in a couple hours, and just try to lie down, put on some really calm music, and close your eyes, feel your breath and enjoy the closed-eye-visual bouncing around while listening to the music. But yes, changing environment, changing music, can totally change the vibe of a trip. Don't call any friends while your tripping. bad idea imo. It's just important that you don't have too many things on your mind while you're going to trip. It's important that you have the whole day free, nothing to do. It's important that you also have the whole next day free as well - no plans! If you have these 2 days free, then you won't be stressed about anything. Start your day off -- after a good nights of sleep - with maybe taking a walk/a jog in the nature, and meditating, eating some light vegan/raw meals, then take the psychedelic around midday. You don't have to do the trip in a dark room. When you get more experienced with tripping you can try some specific settings like a dark room, but for your first real trip here, I would suggest just doing a regular normal well-prepared solo-trip in your home during the day (not the night) with maybe 1 or 2 vists out in the nature if you feel like it. also remember, if you walk into any other human beings during your walk in nature, don't worry, they will not know you're tripping. It's all in your head. from the outside you will look pretty normal.

Do it alone. Especially if your (sober) close friend hasn't tried tripping himself before. Remember to have your whole day off, no plans, nothing to do, no-one to disturb you .. including the next day which will be the recovery/contemplation day. Phone on flymode. If you live close to nature I would actually recommend at some point during the trip, either come-up or come-down to go visit the nature, I think that would be very nice. Most of the trip in-door contemplating/meditating/being for yourself though imo. Have some nice music ready/a playlist ready, yes. You can decide for yourself during the come-up/the trip if you want to listen or not. but the music should be prepared and easy to turn on/off. If you know the LSD is clean and strong, I would stick with 100 ug for your trip, since that's already a 2x your previous dose. Trust me, 100 ug is going to be a looot stronger than 50 ug. 150 ug is also a good dose, but you can always do 150 ug in some weeks/months after your 100ug trip. Try not to have too specific goals. Do the trip because you want to learn. Do it to learn yoursel deeper and learn reality deeper-- to get new perspectives on things. Maybe you'll get an ego-death experience, maybe not. Maybe you will find more peace in your life, maybe not, maybe the opposite, who knows. Just go with the flow during the trip and chill and surrender to the experience. Sure, contemplating is fine, but don't try to force anything, don't try to control too much, just let go and let the LSD do the work while you observe and learn and get absorbed in the experience, which can be both enjoyable or painful... if it's enjoyable, enjoy it, if it's painful, let it be painful, don't resist:) After all, the one who wants to have an ego-death experience is you, the ego..., so...;)

EDIT: I just realized it was probably a mod deleting the thread. In that case, Leo, you have to tell your mods to start being good mods instead of terrible mods. =) I'm shocked to see Leo deleting the thread "The truth about psychedelics". I know why he deleted it. Because the guy writing it was indirectly bashing all of Leo's work, by saying psychedelics only create hallucinations which you cannot learn anything from. Obviously the guy is a newb, and I decided to write a reply. What Leo seems to not understand is that this is a FORUM, and it's fucking TERRIBLE to delete threads just because people express viewpoints which are deeply flawed. It should be allowed to question everything in this forum as long as it relates to 'consciousness', 'meditation', 'psychedelics' etc. It can be very healthy sometimes for someone to come along and express an opinion which is directly opposite of what you think and believe. And yes, the guy hadn't even tried psychedelics, so of course his opinions are not nearly as valid as yours or mine, Leo, but still, it can be healthy to get them to be expressed, because there will come replies/answers, like mine. When I read his viewpoint, that psychedelics merely causes you to have hallucinations by interacting with receptors in the brain, it made me think for a while how I could articulate myself in order to express why he's slightly wrong. I was happy that he wrote it, even though I'm on a totally other page than him. I was happy because by making me think about why he's wrong, I got a better understanding of myself and my beliefs. And surely, there are many people reading on this forum, who don't participate in the discussions, and I bet that they also enjoy reading different viewpoints and arguments for and againsts tools like psychedelics. I mean, for fuck sake, Leo. There was a time +2 years ago, where you believed and argued that psychedelics were a distraction to truth (I can remember discussions with you on YouTube, where you argued they were bad for spiritual enligthenment). Also, it's just very annoying that what I spend 20 minutes writing on just got deleted. Luckily I had a tab open with the page where I wrote my post, so I copy-pasted it and will post it here: EDIT: I just realized it was probably a mod deleting the thread. In that case, Leo, you have to tell your mods to start being good mods instead of terrible mods. =)

I don't see any negative motivation. it's a matter of perspective. I see it as a positive motivation that you want to do shit you like instead of shit you don't like. seems very postive to me.

I didn't know you could do that? But since you just wrote it, I looked for such a function for my own thread here, and I found the "Moderation Actions" -> "Hide"-function . I didn't know that such a function existed. Well, then it seems like, that it was probably just the guy who deleted ("hide") his thread. I will then say to him, that I'm not a fan of that choice And I'm not a fan of the function either, lol.

I can strongly recommend Peter Russels online course "How to meditate without even trying". http://www.peterrussell.com/HMWET/index.php

beautiful trip report. thx.

what you don't seem to get is that the experience you're having right now in this moment is a hallucination. you're hallucinating being a 'self' inside a skull interacting with an -- to you -- outside external world. psychedelics merely have the ability to slightly distort that experience, making it apparant to you, that what you take for a fact -- that there exist a materialistic reality independent of you -- is not a fact, but merely an illusion =) Also your notion of how psychedelic trips are is totally wrong and comes from the cultural mass media, which naturally finds it amusing to portray an image of psychedelics making you see elephants and making you believe you can fly, which is not at all what you experience on psychedelics. What you experience on psychedelics can best be described as like viewing yourself from an outside perspective, which then shows you, that you, yourself, is just a story, and not real. "A wall exists, even if you don't see it you can't walk through it, even if your perception of it changes, you can never walk through that wall." There exists no such thing as a wall. "A wall" is a mental concept. It's a conceptual division of the unity of existence into parts: "me", "wall", "other human", "monkey", "star", "galaxy", "kitchen", "stone", "floor", "house". Psychedelics or meditation can show you that it's all YOU which is a very beautiful insight to have... it's all you my friend. If you actually start to contemplate your everyday experience, you'll find that it's actually all an unified experience without any 'things'/'nouns' in it. Dividing and thus labeling your experience as being constitued of 'parts' (me, wall, floor, things, food, lion, other humans) is what your brain is programmed to do, because it's necessary for interacting with the world in order to survive. But this 'dividing', 'splitting' and 'labeling' of reality is really just an ego-smaug that you unconsciously lay upon 'raw' reality. You say you can't walk through a wall. "Who" is it that cannot? Yes, the body surely can't, but that's just the basic laws of the dream. There has to be somewhat consistent "physical" laws within a dream in order for you to believe it's not a dream but instead "hardcore reality", hehe If everything was totally random then you would know it's a hoax, and you wouldn't be able to live the dream. The distinction between 'reality' and 'dream' or 'reality' and 'hallucination' is very arbitrary and is only made unconsciously from a survival-standpoint, or should we say, a kind of survival-programming. Psychedelics totally messes up with all that biological and cultural programming in your brain. Not just the happiness-centres of the brain (which are likely the only parts that drugs like cocaine or heroine alter). No, psychedelics messes it all up. All of it. And that's why they are so fucking powerful consciousness-tools. They show you that it's all a hoax, that everything is relative and grounded in absolute nothing.