LastThursday

@Mu_ ?

@Meta-Man your relativity has worn me down. I tap out. I cannot define a man any more than I can define being smart. They are both as relative as each other. Sometimes you're a man, sometimes not, it all depends on who knows what. I have learned one thing though: not to argue with a relativist. Anyway I re-iterate:

Consistency? Ok I'm teasing. There's definitely a fine balance between order and chaos in our universe. Which might be labelled as "time" or even "consistency". The world of asleep dreaming is less consistent and more chaotic. But can appearances actually be infinitely chaotic? Is it possible for awareness to operate in an infinitely chaotic universe? If not then there must be a finite limit somewhere on chaos - so its brother Order must always be present in some way. And if there is always some sort of order, then not everything is possible.

For the benefit of the other less smart people reading this thread. Would you like to clarify even further?

I think I smell a relativist argument in the air. Would you like to qualify the comment further?

It is daft to think that anything is possible in absolute infinity. There are rules and regulations to duality you know.

There's a world of difference between saying something like "I'm a man" and "I'm smart". You can be smart in many different areas but very dense in others. Whereas you are man in all contexts (if you are one). Basically smartness is relative and multidimensional, and as such can't be mapped to a one dimensional datum. IQ is bollocks. There's also the question of being able to regurgitate facts, is that really smartness? Is a virtuoso pianist smart? Or just well practiced? It's not so obvious what smart means. Also, using fancy words ^^^ doesn't make you smart

Call me conventional, but music that gets me emotional every time and reminds me just how beautiful and astonishing people can be: And yes Bach is greedy:

I like to say that consciousness is not in time, time is in consciousness. But that's just being a smartarse and nobody likes that

I think we're basically in agreement. My angle is that there exist platonic ideals which function as templates for "similar enough appearances". The feeling or recognition that something is consistent is a manifestation of this. You have a template of your dog in consciousness. To recognise anything at all, there must be a "similar enough" system built into consciousness, so we can dissect the world into different parts, people, things, emotions, thoughts, and so on. In other words it's a base function of consciousness. If you think about it, that is what awareness is. Awareness is not devoid of meaning, but quite the opposite, everything has a meaning. It's not just appearance, but recognition too. As to how these templates are kept in consciousness over time, it's simple: there is no time. But that's a different conversation.

What mental gymnastics? Appearences are fearly similar. A baby can't think much and still can recognize appearences as his "mother" or his "toys" becouse they're fearly similar to previous ones. And that's how consistency works. Two appearances are consistent if they're "similar enough". Then we make an unconscious leap and say they are the same dog, person, thing etc. Of course context is hugely important. You expect your dog to be in your home. If you saw exactly the same dog in someone else's home, it wouldn't be your dog. Hopefully, you can see how consistency is entirely constructed in your imagination. The number 2 in that context is not an appearence, but an abstraction. Very different. I disagree, but it's fine if your definition is different from mine. My definition is that everything is an appearance, including mental abstractions, thoughts and so on. I used the 2 example as a form of platonic ideal. I'm just pointing out that direct experience is not what you think it is. There's nothing direct about it, because there's always layers of interpretation over the top of it. I didn't mention anything about time or evidence or cages.

Some ideas: Can science say anything at all about unrepeatable phenomena? Can we have a science that is non-material - instead of particles and fields, have consciousness as its base? Can the process of science be improved so that it doesn't suffer so much from paradigm lock? Is there anything blatantly obvious that science is missing because of paradigm lock? There are many areas considered fringe science that science could explore. How do we reduce the stigma of investigating them? Can science be done without any maths at all? Should science be divorced from engineering and corporate interests? If so, how does it get funded? What are the benefits of the scientific method - as compared to say introspection and self contemplation or taking psychedelics? How can we make science inclusive, so that anyone can do it and understand it? How do we get the different branches of science to synergise and talk to each other?

But that slow rate of change also applies to things that are outside of my direct experience. For example, I'm not seeing my dog right now but if I check he'll probably be relatively the same How do we reconcile this with "nothing being hidden"? Where is my dog "stored" when I'm not seeing him? All that is happening is that you see appearance A and call it "dog". Then later you see appearance B and call it "dog". You then do a load of mental gymnastics and infer that appearance A is the same dog as appearance B. See it this way: where is the number 2 stored? The number 2 is completely consistent. You can apply it to any appearance "out there". But it doesn't really exist "out there". Two ducks are not two horses. Consistency is overlaid onto appearances. Consistency itself exists, but not "out there" in the world. If you look up "Change Blindness" you can convince yourself that consistency is an illusion.

Is the "my" in your sentence the same as the "observer" or different from it? Does "imagination" belong to the "my"?

Some pointers for you: Solipsism is in imagination Solipsism requires an "observer" that is separate from the "observed" (how else do you know you are alone?) Paradoxically, Solipsism requires the absence of other observers (how else do you know you are alone?). But where did they go? DE by your definition is everything, so that would include both the observer and the observed - Solipsism is different in that case, because of the separation.

Confusion always happens at the start of something new and exciting.

The self is a complicated ragbag construct. It is not rational, it is not coherent, nor is it planned. Most of the time we just make do. We have to cajole, analyse, incentivise, accept, inebriate, self medicate and a thousand other activities just to get the self to do anything at all. Seen from a rational standpoint it really is insanity. If doing is your shtick, then finding ways to reduce the friction the self induces is critical. Fundamentally, there are only two ways to improve yourself and situation: do stuff to affect the outside world, and, do stuff to affect the world inside your head. The two are also closely connected. Further, the act of doing is really about change. The resistance the self puts up is about resistance to change itself. Why should the self be resistant to change? There are a number of reasons: Change is about death - in the broadest sense. One thing needs to give way to another for change to happen. If there is a strong need or identification for the thing about to die, there will be resistance. This is why addictions can be so hard to stop for example. Change is risky. There is always a chance that changing a situation or aspect of ourselves will make things worse. So there is often an informal cost/benefit analysis which happens in the face of change: "Will this make my life better? And is it worth the aggravation?". The best short term reaction is always to do nothing. The self is mostly reactionary and short-termist. Since the self is incoherent and grows organically, there will often be conflicts between different "parts". Don't be confused by the word "part", these are not well defined portions of self. Rather they are a fluid set of emotions and constructs which have been conditioned by innumerable outside influences over time. It's possible for one part to clearly want change, and yet for another part to not want that same change. This can cause paralysis - with the result that nothing changes. First and foremost the self is a survival machine. It is there so that your physical existence continues as long as possible. That means that there is a strong and deep connection between the self and the physical body. If the body rejects action because of a perceived threat, the self does not have much choice but to follow. Normally the body will signal threat through emotion, such as fear or anxiety. The body has to also balance energy expenditure and food intake, so there is a strong bias towards not using energy. This bias translates into inaction. This explains why starting that running habit can be difficult - and why food addiction is rife. Anyone interested in change and doing stuff for self improvement, needs to address the four points above. The self can be re-programmed to be more coherent and its parts aligned and processes put in place to manage the emotions of the body. And with planning and good habits change can be managed better. It can be done.

It's a good trick the ego plays isn't it? Equating meaning with motivation. It's also a good trick to equate motivation with doing stuff. Meaning, motivation and doing are not necessarily connected.

@VeganAwake you're right, we're none of those words.

Some other possibilities: Self hypnosis Caffeine (large dose, probably unwise with a heart condition) Nutmeg (again large dose) Alcohol (medium dose) Cannabis, I prefer edibles Quieting mental chatter mostly through meditation Meditative repetitive activity: walking in nature, running, painting, drawing, house chores, sex (ahaha) Going to foreign places or anything away from normal life Certain music. I like guitar music, must be my Spanish blood. Adrenaline activities: base jumping, extreme ironing. Performing rituals or being part of one Dressing up, performing, acting, playing music in public, public speaking Basically anything that gets you "out of yourself" or makes you more "present" and not lost in thought.

@Someone here it's much appreciated. There are some really interesting journals on here I read regularly, yours included. I was trying to be clever, but by my inversion of your statement I was merely trying to point out that if we actually existed as a separate self, one of our characteristics would be free (independent) will. Because we would truly be separate from outside influence. So it follows that if we don't have free will, then we can't be separate. In other words we are deterministic automatons who have been somehow "programmed" by outside influences - i.e. not separate. As regards your bolded paragraph above. I pretty much agree. I made a comment to that effect in the Compatibilsm thread, in response to Nahm: https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/55172-proof-of-free-will-why-compatibilism-is-correct/?page=2 Always happy to discuss these things!

@Someone here indeed, you could invert what you say: you don't exist as a separate self because you don't have free will. I must admit my own view is pragmatic. Free will is really a non-idea. Whether you believe strongly in free will or completely in determinism, it still makes no difference to the outcome of your actions. It really boils down to taking responsibility for your actions: if it's all pre-determined then you can give up all responsibility, because you're not in control.

Free will questions pop up on the forum like the many headed Hydra. In my curiosity I thought I would quantify and provide a rundown of the Free Will related questions that have appeared on the forum. My guess was right: a lot. Anyway, those curious about Free Will should start here: And to dig further into it, some forum posts: February 8 2016: 442-how-can-i-master-something-when-there-is-no-free-will February 15 2016: 1058-no-free-will February 18 2016: 1287-destiny-vs-free-will-question March 5 2016: 1999-free-will-vs-determination April 21 2016: 3359-free-will December 8 2016: 7133-question-about-free-will December 11 2016: 7186-free-will-vs-free-choice December 15 2016: 7277-is-there-a-free-will-final-answer January 25 2017: 7997-are-we-all-living-a-predetermined-destiny February 5 2017: 8234-free-will-vs-determinism April 17 2017: 10122-free-will April 20 2017: 10190-please-help-free-will-no-good-or-evil-got-me-depressed May 6 2017: 10633-anything-is-possible May 28 2017: 11241-awareness-and-free-will July 2 2017: 12235-insight-on-free-will July 3 2017: 12247-if-there-is-no-free-will-how-can-i-decide-to-surrender-to-the-idea-that-there-is-no-free-will August 28 2017: 13704-determinismno-free-will-and-meditationenlightenment September 28 2017: 14442-how-to-reconcile-no-free-will-and-action-taking-the-worst-limiting-belief-ever October 25 2017: 15072-who-becomes-enlightened November 3 2017: 15258-no-free-will-determinism November 19 2017: 15728-enlightment-no-free-will-happy-with-not-being-able-to-hold-down-a-job November 20 2017: 15757-no-free-will-limiting-beliefs November 21 2017: 15767-no-free-will-suicidal-thoughts November 21 2017: 15797-you-have-100-free-will-and-you-also-have-no-free-will-the-other-side-of-the-paradox March 9 2018: 19267-question-about-the-free-will January 5 2018: 17318-rupert-spira-about-free-will February 22 2028: 18799-determinism-vs-dream June 27 2018: 22655-does-free-will-exist July 28 2018: 23664-is-determinism-a-truth-or-just-a-belief August 10 2018: 24075-if-all-a-dream-and-no-free-will-then-no-awakening September 15 2018: 25462-no-free-will-vs-life-purpose-compatibly September 21 2018: 25734-sadhguru-says-we-have-free-will October 12 2018: 26515-free-will-does-exist-within-the-illusion-and-must-be-exercised-to-achieve November 11 2018: 27574-if-all-timeline-were-created-in-an-instant-and-free-will-does-not-exist November 15 2018: 27765-forrest-gump-and-free-will November 28 2018: 28361-the-illusion-of-free-will-is-life-scripted December 18 2018: 29225-everything-is-predetermined December 20 2018: 29320-does-god-have-free-will January 2 2019: 29895-you-have-free-will January 4 2019: 29984-is-this-a-workable-view-on-free-will-vs-predetermination February 2 2019: 31165-free-will-vs-no-free-will Fabruary 14 2019: 31659-how-can-i-choose-to-awaken-if-i-have-no-free-will February 15 2019: 31673-laws-of-infinitygod-and-free-will February 18 2019: 31792-do-you-believe-that-we-have-free-will February 21 2019: 31925-free-will/ March 24 2019: 32851-im-starting-to-think-there-is-no-free-will March 30 2019: 33071-i-don%E2%80%99t-have-free-will-i-am-free-will April 9 2019: 33466-how-much-do-you-think-were-constrained-to-gods-plan-free-will-vs-destiny Aprril 17 2019: 33766-free-will May 15 2019: 34801-if-free-will-doesnt-exist-then-acting-also-doesnt-exist May 19 2019: 34946-determinism-or-free-will June 11 2019: 35862-disagreements-on-free-will June 27 2019: 36478-no-free-will-and-pure-awareness July 11 2019: 37037-if-leo-say-we-are-god-then-do-you-think-free-will-exist-or-we-have-control July 25 2019: 37534-leo-new-video-on-free-will August 9 2019: 38049-if-i-am-god-how-do-i-not-have-free-will%C2%A0 August 15 2019: 38321-free-will August 28 2019: 38931-is-there-not-even-a-tiny-bit-of-free-will August 29 2019: 38952-free-will-is-not-free October 23 2019: 41226-freewill October 27 2019: 41372-is-there-freewill-in-absolute-love November 8 2019: 41864-determinism-vs-free-will-with-higher-states-of-awareness December 10 2019: 43135-so-do-we-have-free-will-or-not December 20 2019: 43524-about-volition-free-will-and-determinism January 3 2020: 44012-life-is-deterministic-isnt-consciousness-a-free-will January 13 2020: 44339-what-it-means-for-there-to-be-determinism January 18 2020: 44502-free-will-rant January 18 2020: 44504-is-determinism-just-a-paradox January 30 2020: 44953-leos-recent-video-confusion-determinism February 9 2020: 45345-why-is-there-no-free-will-why-does-god-allow-this March 3 2020: https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/46184-fred-davis-free-will/ May 11 2020: 48844-is-there-free-will-most-beautiful-answer-i’ve-ever-seen June 3 2020: 49739-if-everything-is-predetermined-why-try-why-pray August 18 2020: 53042-the-oddities-of-no-free-will September 12 2020: 54122-had-the-experience-of-where-human-free-will-comes-from

I'm losing the will...