RendHeaven

That and much more.

Meanwhile Emerald in another thread: "Ladies you MUST BEFRIEND your man before sex!"

Bingo, I sniff this off of all of the forum girls a mile away. They feel like they have the "higher perspective" (and in many ways they do) so they're antsy to rush men to the finish line but they have no respect or acceptance for the male journey and the "lower" level of development that men need to personally go through first before coming out of the other end. An even higher perspective simply accepts everyone where they're at, but it's hard to relay that to women who feel unheard. Thank you. Yes. It's almost comical seeing the mischaracterizations of pickup here. It's clear that the ladies attacking pickup have never seen a single pickup seminar or read a single pickup book, but they're very self-righteous in their judgement. The toxic forum noobs screeching about approaching is not an accurate account of pickup. Leo writing "go approach" is not an accurate account of pickup. This whole situation feels like the mirrored opposite of men calling out "toxic feminism" and refusing to identify as feminist... such men only do that because they think feminism is about women demanding superiority and generally being irritable - they attack feminism without even studying what feminism actually is. Likewise, our lovely forum girls think pickup is about objectifying and harassing women and generally being irritable - so they attack pickup without even studying what pickup actually is. They're attacking the wrong thing! Attack the corrupt individual and collective egos that are responsible for objectification and harassment, not pickup itself! It really is gaslighting...

Yes, you sound yellow. You've self-diagnosed yourself and offered up a solution before even asking for help from others I think you have a great plan. One day at a time. Appreciating excellence and executing at a high level are not restricted to SD orange. These are Turquoise-compatible values. I urge you to contemplate that on your own... Cheese may turn out to be hollow, but being a rat in a maze sounds like quite an adventure Don't you wonder what the walls are made of? What exists outside of the maze? Why are you inside of it? All things considered, there's no better place to be.

Do you identify with SD stage yellow at all?

This course matters extra if you're thinking of doing something more hands-on or materially practical. Those with vague fluffy spiritual Life Purpose inclinations (like me lol) are the ones that get the least out of the course imo.

??? In my experience, whenever men say "don't ask a fish how to hunt," they're generally responding to claims such as "I want a guy who's nice and treats me well." Like yeah, we don't doubt that you want that, but you've conveniently assumed that the guy in question is already attractive. No matter how much an unattractive guy "treats you well," you're not going to spread your legs for him... because he's unattractive. It's the same deal with Teal Swan's "positive containment." Positive Containment is critical for intimacy/long term relationships, but it only has meaning because the guy is pre-assumed to be attractive... it doesn't matter how much "positive containment" an unattractive guy exhibits, he's just gonna come off as creepy and your legs will stay shut. I mean, this should be intuitively obvious. What sane woman would spend the time and effort to deliberately teach a gross and creepy man accurate theory on how to get her to open her legs? Seriously self-reflect on this. You yourself wouldn't dare to do this. It will never happen, because you detest gross and creepy men. And I can't blame you women, it's part of your survival agenda. So instead, women talk about being treated right and receiving the emotional support of their dreams. Meanwhile, pickup theory teaches gross and creepy men how to legitimately stop being gross and creepy - how to be "normal men," as Emerald put it above. Honestly, looking at it from "above" in a meta-sense, all things are occupying their rightful place. I think women's concerns about intimacy and emotional support are true and important. I'm just saying that pickup isn't the enemy. Don't worry the chair wasn't thrown at anyone, it was aimed at a wall. As a matter of fact, I was inconsolable. I needed to be left alone. If you can't understand that, I'm afraid you might one day have a son that acts in the way that I once did. But I haven't given much context to what happened that day so maybe I shouldn't expect immediate empathy lol. I don't stand by what I did, and I now believe I was in the wrong, but I find myself now in the unique position of being able to have deep empathy for any kid in a similar position... you can moralize at my past self all you want but you're missing the point if you can't reach a point of "Oh. I understand." --- --- Well said.

@Emerald Jeeeez well said! Spot on. I edited my original comment a bit more elaborating on the differences between our perceptions of "pickup," let me know if I've misunderstood you.

This is lifechanging. But Emerald, all of that IS pickup! Haha, yes. This still feels condescending somehow (to both women and men). But I'm open to the possibility that I'm projecting. From the perspective of "having more women desiring you," I see no difference between "pickup" and "developing yourself into the best version of you." Of course, from other perspectives there is a difference. I don't deny that the culture is generally toxic, and furthermore I agree with you that pickup doesn't have anything to say about intimacy or long term relationships. The difference between our perspectives is that: I differentiate between the core principles of pickup vs its toxic culture (these aren't synonymous to me, although maybe they are the same to you) I don't fault pickup for lacking concern for intimacy/LTRs, because pickup imo is very clear on its promises. It's meant to make men more sexually attractive. That's it. Believe it or not, I'm a huge proponent of intimacy/LTRs and understanding the female experience - I just believe that such topics are trans-pickup (embracing pickup and going beyond) as opposed to anti-pickup (denial of pickup in favor of going beyond)

Bwahaha I agree. But clearly, talking at me more wouldn't have been "help." I used my obnoxious example to illustrate that. I think at the end of the day we all want to feel understood first and foremost, prior to anything else. That means that if I feel sexually inadequate and I want to change my life, telling me to have self love is counterproductive. Trust me, it pains me to say that because the term "Self-Love" is baked into my Life Purpose statement, but I'm trying to approach this with nuance. Yes, in the pickup community they call that "being a natural" - as in "oh he's a natural [with girls]." But I think it's a luxury to assume that the societal solution to poor sexual self-esteem in men is to "just have better upbringings." Especially since - get this (I'm about to appeal to you hard lmao) - capitalism actively taints young men's ideas of what is attractive to women. We're taught that we need to look good or be rich or act like certain mainstream men to become the object of female desire... pickup actively goes against that narrative, by showing you that NO you can just BE YOU and still be desired by women, as long as you adhere to fundamental principles like not taking yourself seriously. Pickup provides a learning structure and shows you the link between your inner behavior and the exterior result, which is not found anywhere else. You say "resort to pickup" as though all other options have been exhausted and we're selling our souls LOL What other practical "outlet" do you propose? What other "outlet" actually listens to the needs of men and helps them where they're at? From what I can tell, you're not actually listening to the needs of men. You're ascribing how you think men ought to be upon men. Don't worry, it's not lost on me that the opposite is (more) true. Men listen to women even less. Emerald is spot on with this comment:

That's some disingenuous self-serving framing there You make it sound like the guy's efforts has nothing to do with his sexual results, but that rather the woman's desperation or lack must be the reason for the sexual encounter... but consider that the guy becoming more attractive actually has an effect on the woman's decision. I agree. Well said. ***most women looking for a relationship?

I called my mom a "fucking bitch" and threw a wooden chair across the room, shattering it into pieces when I was 15 because I didn't feel understood. She kept lecturing at me even though I was yelling at her to stop. I felt like she didn't care about the immediate pain that I was undergoing, it felt like she was trying to rush me to the finish line of being a problem-less child. And I thought I was a rather reasonable kid, haha. So yeah I wouldn't bank on reason This. Excellent. It seems like the hard lifting as a parent actually comes prior to even conceiving kids. Environment matters sooooo much. I agree. To me, pickup is an awesome thing because in my mind it's divorced from the "cringey stage orange alpha male phase." For example, learning to not take yourself so seriously. That's a core principle I learned from pickup which has made me more attractive. I'm always laughing when pickup is interpreted as this satanic ritual of dudes who nefariously plot their next manipulation tactic when some of its best teachings boil down to: "Relax your body, find something to genuinely smile about, say something you find authentically funny with good eye contact, don't burden her with the expectation of a reaction, show her that she can be comfortable holding your hand," etc. etc. Oh no, the terror ?? It's almost like religion honestly. In both religion and pickup we find some core principles that positively impact lives. Then, it goes mainstream and becomes corrupt and wars are fought over it. Yes, but if you are a guy that specifically struggles with attracting women sexually, and you authentically desire women sexually, it makes sense to resolve that specific problem. You can pretend you're "transcending" your desire or you can tell yourself that you don't need sex because you have self love, but that usually ends up being bypassing, and you harbor even more resentment towards yourself for being a sexual failure. I strongly disagree. That's not the heart of pickup. The heart of pickup is simply to become sexually attractive to women. The majority of guys get into this because they just crave intimacy with a girlfriend, but reality slaps them in the face as they realize that girls don't want them. How can you fault these guys for finally owning up to their insecurities and taking action towards a better life? It actually takes some guts to say "I suck with women, I want to be better." The nefarious attributes you describe are ego-corruptions of the loudest people who have no introspection, but they only represent a tiny fraction of the community.

WOOOOOHOO! Now that's my kinda vibe~~~

@Emerald It's very simple: Men care about sex. If a man listens to a woman about "her desires," he does not get more sex. Conversely, when we listen to other men, we actually DO get more sex. This is easily personally tested. It's almost universal. Hence the saying "don't listen to women blah blah." --- Is this biased and self-serving and partial and myopic? YES! OF COURSE! Sex is like 1% of human interaction lol. There's no reason to hyper-focus on it other than skewed judgement. BUT - insofar as we come from the paradigm of wanting more sex, it is simply the case that not listening to women produces the desired result. Therefore, if you want a strong critique of pickup culture, I suggest you attack the fundamental bias of wanting to maximize sex; because the text above in red is a given.

If the whole world says otherwise, your word means nothing. Good luck... you make it sound so simple to "teach" someone so young and helpless something so advanced. You've written "I would teach" or "I would tell" as though smooth sailing were guaranteed, but I think you take for granted that you'll be heard at all. A young boy suffering from lack of approval by his peers doesn't care about mom's lecture. Be prepared for tremendous backlash. He will scream at you, maybe even call you a bitch. And if you punish him for that he will just stop associating with you. Conversely, if you let him step all over you by maintaining a lovey-dovey "tolerant" persona, he won't learn anything either. As a parent raising an anxty teenager, you're sort of caught in this damned-if-you-do damned-if-you-don't double-bind. What seems true to me is that you simply lack influence over your kid once they hit their teens. They will naturally start to look for alternative sources of growth. This is where pickup comes in. Pickup simply promises: "Let's get girls to like you (sexually)." It meets young boys where they are at, and provides practical solutions in a way that no parent can. Moreover, I think you underestimate the societal pressure young boys/men deal with. Female sexual validation is literal currency... in a way that's totally unrelatable to the female psyche. Of course, this currency is a collective illusion as is with all forms of currency, but there are practical day-to-day consequences involved. Every time you say "Just accept yourself! you're already beautiful!" in male-speak that translates to "Go starve and die, broke boy." Empty platitudes mean nothing to a guy with zero female validation, because at the end of the day the whole world still treats him like a homeless person. You're right in the sense that ultimately, radical self-love solves everything. But young boys don't realize this until after they've gone through their "pickup journey." And you can't force the process. I also find it interesting that I thought Karmadhi asked in a fair manner about a male-specific problem, and the energy of your responses all undermine the gravity of this problem by basically saying "but women also!" And yet, the topic at hand is obviously a male-specific problem because pickup has a target audience of men. I've never even heard of pickup for women (though maybe it exists haha). As I'm sure you've read somewhere, men seek attraction solutions while women seek relationship solutions. I think we're all in agreement that everyone has problems, but I think it's appropriate to notice the general differences in the kind of problem. I think it's necessary to talk about the problems that women face, but not at the expense of the problems that men face - and of course, vice versa.

From the biggest possible picture? There is no such thing.

Context matters, so I cannot say definitively. Generally I'm in favor of setting social boundaries without any festering resentment; - as opposed to setting social boundaries with festering resentment. The difference is the amount of inner work you've done on yourself. Inner work shouldn't get in the way of social action. You can do both!

You're scared. Yes, why not entertain idiocy while people drop dead lol. I see no harm~

The feeling of annoyance is legitimate as a sensation arising - the fact that it is happening at all gives it validity. Just be careful to notice the active role you yourself play in maintaining this feeling/sensation. The mistake is to pretend that you have nothing to do with it - to ascribe the sensation to an "external world." In fact, you had everything to do with it. It's fully within your power to literally erase all trace of annoyance instantaneously. Counter-intuitively, you erase it through acceptance - embracing that it is happening, and respecting its validity. The more you deny it or spin circles in your mind about it, the more fuel you add to the fire, and the more the monster rages and the more you start thinking that the external world must be encroaching on you.

I've come to realize for myself that all perceived annoyance is projection.

I observe that vaccine skeptics are not actually truth-oriented. You're being very kind here with the benefit of the doubt In fact, they may even be more survival-oriented than the masses while hiding behind the guise of truth-seeking. The only reason they kick and scream so loudly to prolong the vaccine shot is because they imagine some terrible fate will personally befall them if they accept the responsibility of vaccination. This reeks of fear and dense ego-protection energy.

Bingo Bingo

What's the difference between a "closed" and "opened" third eye?

I await patiently.

@soos_mite_ah You'd be surprised. I had a handful of attractive female friends in highschool who I never made a move on. Cuddled some of them, in fact. "No strings attached affection" as we'd say. One girl had her face very very close to my crotch while we were watching a movie with a group of friends. The social chameleon side of me says "~~Just platonic friends!!~~" but sometimes I still think about the feelings I had that day. Who am I kidding, the next day I was punching the air because in truth I wanted her sexually (at least in that moment) and I was lying to both myself & everyone else about that. I've never actually told anybody this btw. So if you were to ask her for her side of the story, she would say: --- I'm not suggesting that she owed me anything btw. I'm just sharing how easily young boys hide their true thoughts.