Leo Gura

To get a relationship one must first get laid.

To be clear, many guys who get into pickup abuse it and don't give a shit about women. I'm just saying that pickup can be done in more conscious ways and the fact is that it works and it's not going away because men struggle with getting laid more than ever. So my solution is to make pickup more conscious and healthy.

@Anderz Sorry, but I can't take this any more. Everything you post is a denial of basic reality. Banned. Don't "flood the zone with shit" here.

It's sort of like you're saying, don't practice piano because you're not perfect and natural at it. Guys need a mechanism for getting better with women. Pickup is that mechanism. You can criticize it, but then you need to invent a better mechanism that actually works for guys. The problem is that what women think will work for guys -- does not work! It's like telling a lion to eat tofu. Sounds nice in theory but doesn't work in practice because he's a lion.

"That headspace" << See, you got some negative view of pickup as some fakery. You're framing this as though pickup teaches men to be dogs. But the reality is that most men are dogs whether they learn pickup or not. Pickup doesn't put the dog in the man. His genetics do that. The whole point of being good with women is that you make them feel more intimate and safe then untrained guys. The reason PUAs get laid so much more is because they make women feel more intimacy and deeper intimacy than otherwise. Intimacy is something that a guy can learn to create quickly.

So what is your proposal? That men don't train to get better with women?

I don't expect women to understand pickup. It's an incorrect view that pickup cannot lead to deep bonding experiences. All pickup does is increase your odds of getting laid. Where that goes from there is up to you. You can use it to get married or whatever.

And no one says it is or should be.

How would you know that? That's like saying the gym doesn't work for everyone. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I have used pickup skills to create deep bonding experiences. Of course not everything is a deep bonding experience, nor should it be. The average guy who has zero training will not know how to create deep bonding experiences. Which is your typical guy who you ladies complain about. He has no idea how to do deep sex or how to please you. Getting good with women requires training for most men. And training comes with lots of failure and trial and error.

That's because I sucked and was training to overcome serious social anxiety and inexperience, and pickup has a very steep initial learning curve. My conversion rate today would be much higher. But see, you don't care about such things as learning curves. Also, don't forget, most hot girls have boyfriends. Hard to have a high conversion rate when you are going for hot girls and many of them are taken because they get approached all the time and have so many options.

Exactly what pickup teaches, exactly what makes guys assholes. This is all much more complex than people think.

Lol How could the genius of Ben Franklin not foresee this? Yeah, every teacher and janitor should be a SWAT warrior trained in counter-terrorist tactics.

No, that draws the boundary of concern far too narrowly. Women don't even understand the burden and challenge of having to approach. It's a huge burden that women take completely for granted. I wish I never had to approach. You think guys like to approach??? I would rather get kicked in the dick.

Yes, in a sense. I don't claim to fully understand women. There's much I don't understand so I try to be curious about your POV. For example, when I trip on psychedelics I will actually try to feel what it's like to be a woman. But also, I am biased, and sometimes I just don't give a fuck about the woman's agenda when I got my own to worry about. After all, no one will concern themselves with meeting my needs other than myself. Which is why selfishness exists. Selfishness is not some evil force. Selfishness is absolutely necessary for selflessness. In fact, selfishness is identical to selflessness in the absolute sense.

Right. And why should a man care about understanding women when women don't care about his needs? And why should anyone care about understanding anyone else when it doesn't directly serve their needs? Bottom line: why should anyone be selfless when the best thing is to be selfish? TA-DA! The human condition

It's impossible to understand pickup without many hours doing it. Sorry. Whatever understanding you have is paper thin.

Of course it's possible. They just rarely want to. Women have little interest in sitting down and logically analyzing and deconstructing their attraction. Because it ruins the illusion. Girls have a vague right-idea of what attracts them: humor, confidence, masculine energy, leadership, strength, dominance, charisma, social status, authenticity, etc. But they will not tell you how to create these things. They just expect you to naturally have it and never work to create it. They tend to think that if you work to create it you are doing something wrong, unnatural, and cheating. And that's because plenty of guys do fake those things to lure in women, and of course women hate that because they don't want the fake thing, they want the real thing. But they have no interest in knowing what it takes to create the real thing. They just know they want it. They don't care how the guys gets it. And they are not very tolerant or understanding of the guy's struggle/attempts to create it. The attempts are framed as fakery and cheating -- not genuine desire for growth. So when a guy fucks up the pickup, the girl doesn't think, "Oh, he's doing this to try to become a better man but he failed here", she thinks, "This guy is a fake creep loser trying to get in my pants. This is gross and horrible". They want the sausage but they don't want to know how its made.

Pickup is highly self-biased, because it's designed to satisfy the male survival agenda. No doubt about that. Exactly the same way that female dating and relationship advice is highly self-biased. Women do not care about a pure understanding men and their sexual needs. Women only care about their female needs. No woman I've ever met has ever cared about understanding pickup. And hence no woman does. Because in general, no human cares about a pure understanding of anything. Human desires for understanding are usually highly limited to their personal survival needs. Hence the whole tragedy of mankind.

No, because you in fact have no experience attracting and seducing women. So you don't know what that takes, nor do you care to know. No. I'm not a dating coach and I don't earn any money coaching people on pickup stuff. But I can tell you from lots of personal experience that a woman will never give a guy good advice for how to attract and sleep with women. Because attraction is deeply counter-intuitive and women themselves are deeply in denial and unconscious of what attracts them and what makes them open their legs. Women love to tell themselves all sorts of fantasies about what they are attracted to, when in fact they are attracted to the opposite. They will say stuff like, "Just be yourself. Just be a nice guy." and then they end up sleeping with the biggest asshole in the room. A fish cannot tell you how to catch it because it has not invested any time and has no experience catching itself. The first doesn't actually know what catches it. And even if it did, it would not be in the fish's survival interest to disclose such information. Just because a thing works on all women does not mean you will sleep with every woman. Not even close. Your 25% number is just something you invented to make yourself feel good. Women love to believe, "That pickup stuff will never work on me. I'm too smart for that. It only works on dumb girls with low self-esteem." Except you're not too smart for it because you are attracted to certain things and if a guy meets that criteria you will be attracted to him regardless of how he got there. You don't care about how he got there. You don't know how he got there. All you see is the end result. Yes, of course. But I'm not marketing to anyone here. Yeah, and every guy you ever slept with met the standard criteria and principles of pickup, regardless of whether he learned pickup or not. People are attracted to different styles and flavors. Hence there cannot ever be a 100% conversion rate. Pickup takes all this into account. You are not meant to mesh well with all guys. It does not matter what you've seen before -- a high-value guy is a high-value guy. You're assuming the guy is faking his value, but I'm talking about a guy who is not faking his value. This is like a guy saying, "Well, I've seen big tits before, so big tits won't work on me again." They work every time. And they even work when they are fake or some push-up bra. No. The conversion rate is low because all dating is a numbers game. You play this numbers game your entire life. When you go on Tinder, there is your numbers game. Yes, of course I personally won't appeal to every woman. In fact, this is a common mistake newbie PUAs make -- trying to appeal to every woman. A guy will be much more successful with women if he aims for 33% of women hating him, 33% of women being indifferent to him, and 33% of women loving him. This polarization is key. Just like in business you must appeal to a specific audience, not everyone under the sun. Notice that you are the one who is setting up this 100% conversion rate standard. But that's a strawman. Nowhere near this standard needs to be met. Baseball is not discredited simply because no one has a 100% bating average. And baseball bating principles don't merely work on 25% of the balls, they work on 100% of the balls. But you will never hit 100%.

Definitely

I dunno. Plenty of young people eat this shit up. What young Murican male doesn't want to believe he can use his hunting skills to take on a couple of mass shooters Rambo-style?

@Emerald Your thinking about what pickup is, is limited. Given your limited picture of what it is, your perspective is valid. But pickup is not what you think it is. It's very hard to understand it from a woman's POV. All women are attracted to confident, humorous, outgoing, and strong men who can stimulate them emotionally and are good leaders. The function of pickup when done properly is to teach guys how to become such men. It's not about pickup lines.

This is not correct. All women are attracted to the principles that pickup teaches. 100% -- assuming they are straight and feminine. It just needs to be executed naturally, and of course this still don't not guarantee some 100% conversion rate. Conversation rate in all things is usually low. It's silly to expect to sleep with 100% of people you meet. Conversion rate in most sales situations is <1%. Of course pickup is NOT a pure understanding of women. It's an understanding of how to attract and sleep with women. These are two very different things.

Nobody will ever give you marketing. It's your job to create it. That's what business is! Let go of the gurus and books and start using your brain creatively and independently. With that said, you can find hundreds of different courses/seminars/workshops on marketing. They can teach you principles and give you ideas, but none of them will do the trick for you. Only you can do the trick. The right marketing plan is worth more than the entire business. To expect someone to hand you a marketing plan is like expecting someone to gift you a gold mine. Just as an example, do you know what AirBnB's marketing plan was? They created a horde of bots to spam Craiglist to steal all their rental clients and lure them over to AirBnB. Without this plan AirBnB would not exist today. AirBnB is now valued at $101 billion. That marketing plan was worth $101 billion dollars. No book will tell you how to do that.